Episode 853 | How to Become the SaaS That AI Recommends

Rob Walling: Welcome back to another episode of Startups for the Rest of Us. I’m your host, Rob Walling. And in this episode, I talk with Ross Hudgens. He’s the author of a new book about AI SEO, about how to become the SaaS that AI recommends in your category. Ross has a wealth of knowledge on SEO and now GEO, which is generative engine optimization, as he runs an 80-person SEO/GEO agency called Siege Media. Before we dive into our conversation, MicroConf US ticket prices go up on October 9th. So our next MicroConf US is in Austin, Texas from April 18th through the 20th. We have an amazing speaker roster, including Austin’s own Jason Cohen. We of course have our world-class hallway track, and producer Sonya is lining up some great excursions, as she always does. We’re going to be staying right downtown at the Hotel Vanzant. Go to microconf.com/us to grab your ticket before prices go up on October 9th and the event sells out, as our last seven events have.

Use promo code Rob50, that’s Rob 50, to let them know I sent you. And with that, let’s talk about how to become the SaaS that AI recommends. Ross Hudgens, welcome back to the show.

Ross Hudgens: Thanks for having me again, Rob.

Rob Walling: You were on a few years ago talking about SEO for SaaS, because you run Siege Media, where your H1 is “full service GEO. We make brands the answer in search.” And formerly, when you came on the show, Siege Media was focused on SEO. I can imagine there’s a lot of thought going into that pivot these days. How are you thinking about SEO versus GEO these days?

Ross Hudgens: Yeah, SEO is still definitely a massive component of GEO, but there are new flavors that aren’t part of it, which I think isn’t arguable, but some people would argue. A lot of that is the off-site things, like affiliate mentions and reviews on third-party websites. That’s the new element we’re adding to the previous pie, which is still a very important pie.

Rob Walling: Makes sense. So you’ve written a book called Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO, and that’s available on Amazon. Well, it’ll go live, I guess, about a week after this episode goes live. And you’re the person to write this book. When you reached out and said, “Hey, I want to,” I think you asked me to read it and give you a quote or something, and I was like, “Oh, I’m so glad you’re writing this,” because people keep asking me about it. It’s like, look, how much GEO do you think I’ve done? Not very much these days, you know what I mean? I used to do all the marketing and all the SEO for all my businesses, and I’m not there anymore. I’m not down in the bare-metal, nitty-gritty. So when people ask my advice on something this specific, I’m always like, “Well, I really wish I had a resource to hand them.” So the fact that you’re writing this book, I think, is really helpful.

I mean, I guess the obvious question is, you’ve been doing SEO and now GEO. Siege Media is what, 80 employees? It’s a force of nature here. But what made you decide to put pen to paper and get this out?

Ross Hudgens: So I’m a member of an organization called Young Presidents’ Organization, YPO. It’s other business owners. We had an offsite, and someone in the group pushed us to do something called a Masagi. [VERIFY: “Masagi” – YPO program name, unsure of spelling] It’s a once-a-year, difficult, year-defining challenge, essentially supposed to be very difficult to accomplish, fifty-fifty chance of failure. I ran a content agency that became an SEO agency. I was a writer, and I was like, “Wow, light bulb went off. This is the moment we’re in, AI. This is when I should write this book on this exact topic.” We had been going through the transformation ourselves. So I was just like, “Man, I’m going to sprint and do this and spend every morning writing it.” And sure enough, I got it out.

Rob Walling: And you start the book with a client story, right? You had an S&P 100 client, we said 500, you had an S&P 100 client that laid off its entire SEO team in mid-2025. They had a new group called AI Transformation within the company. Tell me, summarize that story. And just so folks know, we’re going to dive in after this into some tactical stuff from the book, so folks can learn how to do some GEO themselves.

Ross Hudgens: Yeah. I mean, so many SEO folks were, I guess, a counterpoint version of the story. This was definitely a scary one. Most importantly, for the people impacted, huge SEO program, a lot of SEO impact. And just one day we woke up and the whole team was gone. We now report to this head of digital transformation, which is probably not unlike a lot of people, and most importantly sad for those people that lost their jobs. But that meant a 12% effective loss of revenue for us. It was our biggest client, and it was painful. We had a lot of churn in that same moment as well. I don’t think that’s unique to us. But at the same time, there’s also a lot of demand on the other end. Everyone’s asking about AI search. We’d already started the path toward adding those services, and it turns out we’d already done a lot of them, which we’ll get into, that was already helping GEO.

So we were lucky. It was super painful. Beginning of the year, we took a major hit that was painful to the company, but we’ve added new services, and we’re coming out the other side really strongly here at the end of the year. So it’s exciting.

Rob Walling (05:29): So most of my listeners are going to know about Google SEO. There’s on-page, the basic stuff you do. There’s off-page, mostly link building and mentions, I guess, these days. I know it just keeps changing. But should you do that first and then GEO is additional stuff? Or is it more like a Venn diagram, where there are two circles, and if you’re going to do GEO, you can do that without doing all the traditional Google optimization?

Ross Hudgens: I think it’s possible. It’s definitely more challenging, especially if you’re a medium-size SaaS company, I’d say. I think it’s feasible, especially for a lot of your listenership. Increasingly, and I was just looking at this data, a huge corpus of influence for LLMs is G2, Capterra, and their kind of audience, but specifically G2 continues to increase. So if you, as a function, just had product marketing be great at asking for reviews, and those were really high reviews, I bet you could ignore your website effectively and still get recommended pretty strongly.

Rob Walling: Let’s talk about this. One of the things in the book you talk about is the “best” in a category, so “best email marketing software.” Why should a SaaS company publish a “best [category they’re in]” post that lists them plus their competitors?

Ross Hudgens: Yeah. It’s not a universal, yes, you should do this, but especially new entrants to the market, places where there’s not massive brand awareness where you may already have a corpus of tons of reviews like that. There’s a lot of value in it because one of the main reasons is it’s the main way to surface in those kind of searches. Google preferences and LLMs preference these roundups and there aren’t alternatives. In most kind of smaller niche SaaS markets, there aren’t affiliate websites. In consumer markets, there’s people publishing on the NerdWallets of the world and those will be recommendation engines for LLMs. But in B2B SaaS, it’s really G2 and then it’s the website. So the kind of plug in there is to create a version of that article, do it really well. Ideally, you don’t say you’re the best overall for something. You say, “I’m the best at this component of CRM software,” as an example.

I’m like, “I’m best for CRM for small businesses,” maybe. And then that kind of enters you in the conversation. Other people find you and add you to their list, and that becomes a snowball. That’s what we had done before LLMs, and now we’re seeing that snowball happen for ourselves as well.

Rob Walling: Is there anything that separates a roundup? I see a lot of these roundups. What separates one that gets cited a lot, or that works, from one that doesn’t? What are the best practices?

Ross Hudgens: Good question. Hitting them in sequence: one, I generally would suggest, don’t call yourself best overall. That helps LLMs segment you into a curated summary. If you say you’re best for small business, that also makes it easy for other people to call you best for small business. They’re probably not going to call you best overall, they’re going to call you something different. So you’re lowering the friction to getting on that list. That’s one, the right positioning of the company, which is a positioning thing. Second, make it look nice. Actually do deep research. We like doing branded screenshots, so you take a screenshot that’s available on these other websites and put a little brand border behind it. Not hard, but you can replicate this across all of them. Give a pro and con section for each. Generally do ten or so. Freshness is really relevant here.

So updating in most SaaS markets quarterly is a good goal. You want to re-look at the list: is the pricing correct, is the positioning correct? That will give you a freshness boost, LLMs like freshness. So all of those components generally add up to hopefully some relevancy and visibility for you.

Rob Walling: Is there any data available on search… they’re not keywords, because people are asking these, everything’s long tail, it seems like. But as a former SEO, I think of the Google Keyword Tool back when it didn’t suck, and now we have Ahrefs, and there was Moz and Semrush, where you can say, “Hey, I guess it’s not perfect data, it’s clickstream data,” but I at least have an idea that a lot more people search for Nike shoes than they do for email marketing software in a given day, right? I know it’s a hundred times more or something. Do we have any idea about LLM volume for terms, or industries, or categories, or is that a thing that’s yet to be done, yet to be discovered?

Ross Hudgens: There’s people trying it. I think there’s a lot of pessimism around the data. Profound does a version called prompt volume, but they’ve said explicitly that it’s synthetic. It’s kind of like…

Rob Walling: Simulated, or made up, or something.

Ross Hudgens: Yes, exactly. So our recommendation is to use search volume data as a proxy. So if, like, project management software has the most search volume for you in your market, kind of turn that into a prompt, like “what is the best project management software,” and then just do that for all your core terms. That’s how we’d suggest it.

Rob Walling: Okay. My 16-year-old is actually interested in GEO and has been starting to noodle on it, and is helping my wife with some stuff on her website. We were having this exact conversation, because he’s deeper into it than I am. So I was asking him this question. He’s like, “Yeah, there really isn’t that.” I was like, “I would use basically Google search traffic as a proxy, or Ahrefs’ numbers,” basically. So that’s good to hear. Let’s switch topics. We’ve just talked about “best in a category” articles, but you also talk a lot about versus articles. Specifically, you mentioned it as a very underrated AI tactic. Why is that?

Ross Hudgens: Yeah. So this was a newer kind of discovery. I mean, it’s always relatively obvious. It’s a down funnel content type you should have on your website, but we had always started with best X tracking in these prompt trackers and the like. And part of the thought process was that’s where you’re not already being shown. Of course, you’re being shown for us versus someone else in these trackers. Therefore, why should I track them? Then your incentives become, do I even need to build these articles? Yada yada. In short, at some point, we ran a correlation study across our client base, specifically in B2B SaaS, and we asked, trying to find what are the correlative attributes to higher visibility? Is there any specific content type that seemed to show more? And actually, versus articles had the highest Spearman correlation across alternative and best X software pages of sites that had the most traffic.

Not that the articles themselves had the most traffic, but the people that had those articles at the highest volume had the overall most LLM traffic to the site. There’s also supporting data from G2 that came out around the same time. They have all that competitor comparison data. Thirty-three percent of their data is best X articles, that’s how people are starting to search for things. Then very shortly after that is X versus Y.

Rob Walling: So versus… how do you structure a versus article so that a model actually lifts it, which is kind of what you wanted to do, right?

Ross Hudgens: Yeah. Part of this is that positioning piece we talked about, the “best” descriptor. So if you have authenticity about how you’re described, this is kind of the next evolution that I don’t think any LLM tool has yet perfectly solved. But you want to think about, and it’s even worth tracking within LLM trackers, what are the qualitative attributes you’re being described as? We talked prior to the call, and you mentioned at the front of this recording, we used to be an SEO agency and now we’re still SEO, but we’re doing GEO too. How LLMs perceive us is pretty important for that final decision. So you want to start actually considering: what are the qualitative descriptors LLMs are framing for us? One, we should create the articles. But a lead-off to that is, are we positively mentioned on these comparisons? Do we win the mentions?

What are the descriptors? Are they the descriptors we want? All of those are kind of the elements. But generally you can still rank for these relatively easily. It’s more about what are you getting out of that ranking that’s worth doing. And then generally I’d say sometimes it’s competitive, so that’s often a challenge for our clients. It’s about whether they even want to publish this thing. So you want to use a neutral voice, not insult the other company, be authentic in the framing. All of that generally helps get across the line.

Rob Walling: Right, right. Yeah. There usually is a little bit of resistance or objection I’ve heard around doing versus, and I’ll say across our TinySeed companies, 217 investments, and I bet, I don’t know if half of them have versus pages, maybe a quarter. I mean, it’s a lot, right? So there’s a number there. I’m trying to think of the number of complaints that they’ve gotten from competitors, whether it’s a CEO getting all pissed off, or another founder, or literally an actual legal letter. It’s only been three or four. I say only, for those guys, it was a bummer because they had to deal with it, but most of them got around it by just saying, “Cool, so what do you want me to change?” And they’re like, “Well, that sentence isn’t true.” “Fine, I’ll remove it.” You know what I mean? And then they went away.

I think someone did take it, they actually got a cease and desist from a lawyer, and they just took that particular page down, but they left all their other versus pages up, or something like that. So this isn’t legal advice, you and I aren’t lawyers, but don’t let your objection, and your fear of maybe something bad happening, be a reason not to do something that could market your company.

Ross Hudgens: Agreed. It’s a decent dovetail into platforms like YouTube, influencer marketing. So if you still have that objection, one way to get around it potentially is to work with an influencer who does SaaS reviews to generate that video.

Rob Walling: So then LLMs, are they looking at YouTube videos and mentions? I mean, I guess the transcripts are up there, right? So that must be part of their corpus.

Ross Hudgens: Gemini has generally done a good job, from what we’ve seen in our testing. The other LLMs, not as much. That’s a fair point. One of the core things we say, more specifically to best-X roundups for SaaS, is you can nudge them in description copy, like “we are best for marketers,” “best for enterprise,” things like that, in the text. What has jumped out is that description copy is obviously crawled by everybody and is probably a good place to be influencing.

Rob Walling: Yeah, because I think you mentioned in the book that YouTube is the number two most cited domain, behind Reddit. Is that still true? Has Reddit gone down in citations?

Ross Hudgens: It has, it has. I still think it’s influential. The newer model, Atlas, [VERIFY: unclear which AI model or product this refers to] in ChatGPT is high, but Google is still the model, right? Even traditional results, AI Overviews, are effectively AI, they’re called AI Overviews. So if you think about that, I think it’s still influential. Our framing to clients is: use Reddit if that’s genuinely where your customers are. You would have invested in the channel anyway, otherwise LLMs are just kind of a sugar on top. I think if you do that, you go where the influence is, you’re going to have a good time generally.

Rob Walling: So let’s say I take a tiny company, [VERIFY: “Tynecy Company Wasapi” – phrasing and spelling uncertain] Wasapi. [VERIFY: “Wasapi” – unsure of spelling] It’s an all-in-one WhatsApp platform for customer support. Imagine you’re flying into Cancun, every van there, you’re hiring someone to drive you, like those van companies, everything’s WhatsApp. When you get there, there’s some operator, a dispatcher, who has software that can manage 20 different WhatsApp threads and track all this stuff. So Wasapi is that software for them. How would you think about, like, “All right, I want YouTubers to maybe mention this.” Where do you start?

Ross Hudgens: Yeah, there are a lot of influencer marketplaces, so that would be my…

Rob Walling: Easiest.

Ross Hudgens: I mean, you can do it scrappily and just go. I would do pattern matching: have they done a review of a relevant… I would go big, probably like customer service software, that’s broader, is probably a great place to start. Look for reviews of those singular companies, use that as a wedge to reach out to those people. If you’re willing to pay them, you’re probably going to get a response. Second is go straight to the listed rates in platforms. In B2B, Limelight’s a good one, Passionfruit’s also a good one. [VERIFY: “Limelight” and “Passionfruit” – influencer marketplace names, spelling uncertain] Those are two good marketplaces. PartnerStack is also, if affiliate is a channel for you, kind of the go-to B2B platform, and it will also have YouTubers on there as well. Sometimes you’ll do affiliate listings plus YouTube as a package deal.

Rob Walling: Let’s dig into affiliate and sponsorship listings. I’ll just say, Google, I don’t think, ever weighed sponsorships. You buy ads places, it didn’t pass link juice or anything, unless it was a link that nobody disclosed, of course, that it was paid for. But LLMs, are they doing it differently? Are they actually looking at ads that are hanging around, and does that lend credibility?

Ross Hudgens: I mean, not PPC, but if you do an organic search… the easiest way to think about it is, you do an organic search, you look at the top ten results, or do the LLM search, and then look at the sources. You’ll see roundups there, and some of them are on your own site, some will be G2, but depending on your market, you may see a niche category listing. The more niche your industry, the more likely this is to be the case. For example, in Siege’s case, agencies are in a market that generally has affiliate programs, because it’s hard to track to conversion, but we pay on a monthly basis to be listed in places. So that’s kind of the component, we want to show up on the listings, and there’s a component of sourcing reviews and tagging yourself correctly.

That’s definitely a component that can still influence higher visibility. And with so many of these things, the value is almost a snowball effect: you show up there, and then someone else uses that as research for their own article. So if you’re going where the eyeballs are, or you’re actually a great product, you’re going to snowball that out.

Rob Walling: Got it. Okay, so just to set the stage, or to get someone’s head around it, tell me if what I’m imagining is correct. There’s some site out there, with a bunch of cache, probably, in Google traditionally, that’s how affiliates have done it, right? And they’re writing a roundup of best GEO agencies in the US, maybe, or best GEO agencies period, or best GEO agencies in whatever city you’re in. And those are affiliate links, is that the idea? If you had an affiliate program, which you don’t, as you’ve just said, then they’d link out and get a cut. Or in this case, they might just take direct payment in order to include you in the roundup.

Ross Hudgens: Yes, you’re correct. Some traditional examples that could be relevant to your listenership, Technology Advice, no affiliation with these companies by the way, and then SelectSoftwareReviews.com are two known affiliates I can think of immediately. They’d have listings, and depending on who you talk to, they describe themselves as truly editorial, but if you can pay a little bit more than someone else, they might put you a little higher.

Rob Walling: You have to weigh that for yourself, for sure. And I’ve known founders who won’t do this, and I’ve known founders who will. I also know white hat SEOs, I know black hat, and I know gray hat. So that’s fascinating. All right, so that would make sense, then, because the LLMs view them as content, not necessarily as pay-to-play.

Ross Hudgens: Exactly. I think there’s still… people are willing to pay to show up on a sponsorship, sustained over the long term, are generally better companies. So if you did payroll software or CRM software, you can’t compete with HubSpot and Salesforce in terms of what they can pay, because of their conversion rate and brand awareness. So I believe wholeheartedly it’s not a bad factor for LLMs to consider, even if there’s a transaction occurring.

Rob Walling: Talk to me about Reddit. We touched on it earlier, and it seemed for a while like Reddit was just the number one domain, and everyone… gosh, people were spamming Reddit so much. And then, within even the past, it seemed like three or four weeks ago, I saw something on social that was like, well, Reddit’s been not delisted, but deprioritized, potentially. I don’t know if that’s true or not, it was just some rando on X/Twitter, and then twenty people retweeted them. So what’s your take, because you’re in it, right? You’re doing this, I’m sure you’re pulling data and citations across hundreds of sites, if not more, to see how impactful Reddit is. What’s your take?

Ross Hudgens: Go where your audience is. If your audience is on Reddit, I think it’s a great place to invest. Where people went astray is they invested where their audience isn’t. So we hit that theme of the snowball effect: even if Reddit weren’t directly influential, if your audience is prominent and recurring on Reddit, it doesn’t even matter if it impacts LLMs directly, because a lot of your audience will find recommendations and brand awareness for you there, and that will long-tail contribute. That’s the pie-in-the-sky version. I do also, it’s still being used, I used Atlas more recently, [VERIFY: same reference as above] may have a new model by the time this comes out in a few weeks. It’s still being referenced, not quite at the frequency, I think they’re going a little broader than they used to as they’re building their own index at ChatGPT, but it’s everywhere on Google still.

So we’ll see how their renewal goes with Google, because that’s still up in the air, and how that visibility is affected. But if your audience is there, I think that’s still a very impactful place to go.

Rob Walling: So I have a question about subreddits. I’ve known people with a SaaS product, with a couple hundred customers, who will start a subreddit, and I’m always like, “What is that about?” I think you mentioned in the book there’s a test for when you should consider it, because I get mentions… I don’t remember the software I use now, because it just pumps directly into Slack, but it’s mentions across Reddit and other social media of me, this podcast, my books, MicroConf, TinySeed, whatever things I’m monitoring. And they get mentioned a lot on Reddit, r/startups and r/entrepreneurship and r/SaaS, I don’t even know what else, probably r/indiehackers and such. I haven’t set up a subreddit for, I don’t think, any of these things. I’m just curious your thoughts on that, and what the benefit is.

Ross Hudgens: Yeah, so our two recommendations, to be, like, go where the community is: one, if that’s true, build a subreddit, build a community. Second is to run paid ads at the place where Redditors exist, so you can attract more customers on Reddit. Downstream, that will attract people mentioning you positively, if you have a good product. But to more directly answer your question, some different benchmarks we set and think about, if you have a lot of search volume, it’s kind of a matrix of branded search volume against customer lifetime value. We’ll roughly say 20,000 searches a month, which is quite high. If some of your listenership has a high average customer value, that may be a little lower, I think that’s fine. But part of the consideration there is, if they’re searching your brand name, that means they’re looking for you, they may also be adding clarifying questions on top of that.

So you could help address them on the subreddit, sometimes in a way that’s a little challenging on the site. One example I gave in a recent talk is, someone organically posted on the Chime subreddit, “Is Chime a good bank?” And you can’t really answer that on your own website, it’s just kind of strange. But if a true user puts it on Reddit, it’s a little easier, you’re on your own turf, you can control it, you can delete things. That is some of the value, but you don’t want it to become an empty, quiet ghost town. So that’s some of it, yeah.

Rob Walling: Got it. So as we wrap up, if I’m a bootstrapped founder, maybe I have a co-founder, don’t really have such a big team, if at all, but I am doing five or 10K a month, I’m probably early stage, or maybe let’s say up to even 50K a month, and I’m just kind of cranking on it. I haven’t done any GEO stuff yet. What are the first few things to do in the first month? And I guess the second question is, how do we measure this? I hear this “percent visibility” thing thrown around, what is that, what are we looking to measure, and how do we measure it? That’s part B.

Ross Hudgens: Yeah, great question. The good thing about GEO is a lot of other channels kind of indirectly impact GEO now. So hopefully you’re already asking your customers for reviews, I would get that absolutely dialed in, in terms of the motion. One thing we’ve been suggesting is you could even suggest, “Could you review me on G2, or this Reddit thread, if you have it, in an account?” So if some CRM software thread came up, you could point them at that, they might publish. If you give them the “or” function, maybe a little easier to do that, that’s one route potentially. I do think transactional content on your website is very fruitful. So if you can’t immediately identify a directory, like Clutch in our world, that’s not G2 in your niche, create those roundups, make them high quality, and also create the versus articles. That’s a hundred percent where I’d start first, and you’ll drive a lot of visibility.

Then on your measurement side, there are a lot of good prompt trackers out there, they’re all getting kind of blended together. We’re using Peec AI currently, I like them, they continue to get adopted. How is…

Rob Walling: It? How is it spelled?

Ross Hudgens: P-E-E-C dot AI. And yeah, it’s reasonably priced, we were able to not have to pass the cost on, so that was one reason we use it. But using that as a proxy, search volume for “what is the best X software” for your industry, creating categories around each of your product use cases if you can, and then tracking that over time. One of the core, simple ways we suggest influencing visibility is, you look at the source URLs there, and you aim to be positively mentioned on as many of those, or replace those source URLs by creating the content yourself. So that’s a short summary of how I’d show up in AI.

Rob Walling: Amazing. If folks want to learn more, they should go buy Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO. It’s a heck of a title, sir. As an SEO yourself, you of course are going to try to dominate Amazon by naming the generic. You’ve named the generic, you got “Definitive Guide to AI” in there, you got “AI SEO” in there, and you got “GEO” or “Generative Engine Optimization.” Don’t think I don’t see you, I saw you a mile away.

Ross Hudgens: I wanted AEO in there too, but that was too keyword-spanning.

Rob Walling: It’s just a little… yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I’ve been saying for years, I’d tell founders organic search and ranking and optimizing for that, we all say Google, Google, Google, but YouTube’s number two. So that’s not a bad place to rank, whether you start your own channel or get on other people’s channels. And then Amazon’s got to be in the top five search engines in the world, right? You probably know it in order. I would go after that even. Back when I was doing Drip, which is email marketing software slash marketing automation, I published an ebook, something about… I don’t even remember if it was “SaaS email marketing,” and I think we may never have gotten it on Amazon, or it may have been pulled down since then, but I wanted to rank on Amazon for the term “email marketing,” like “email marketing help.”

And then WordPress, wordpress.org at the time, we got the slug email-marketing, wordpress.org/plugin/email-marketing, and we built something enough to make it suitable, whatever, and we got traffic from there. It wasn’t the highest quality traffic, but all of this stuff was me thinking, “How can I just be in all these places?” I think we even launched, did we launch a Chrome plugin? It was stuff like that. Back then, it took time and effort to maintain. Now Claude Code could get you there… Do you do things like that for you or your clients, where you look at the whole landscape of all the searchable, all the search engines that exist, and think about how to rank there?

Ross Hudgens: I mean, we have e-commerce clients too, and undoubtedly, Amazon will show up for LLM influence, because that’s where all the reviews are being pulled from. So it’s definitely part of the consideration set, for sure. A little less prominent in B2B, but I think that’s very smart. Obviously a big marketing play, to put out a book and then rank for that thing. But hopefully it’s worthwhile, we’ll find out. I know it’s been worthwhile for you, it sounds like.

Rob Walling: Well, good luck on your launch day, man. Thanks for taking time to join me today. Folks can find you at siegemedia.com. Is there any other place? Where do you hang out, are you on LinkedIn, Twitter?

Ross Hudgens: Yeah, LinkedIn, I’ve posted a good amount, and Twitter, just Ross Hudgens on both. I’d love to connect with anybody.

Rob Walling: Sounds great. Thanks for taking time.

Ross Hudgens: Thanks for having me, Rob.

Rob Walling: Thanks again to Ross for coming on the show, and thanks to you for listening this week and every week. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 853.