Episode 840 | 5 PM Revisited, Starting Over After Failure, Never Shipping, and More Listener Questions (Rob Solo)

Rob Walling: The two reasons to vibe code something are probably to save money or because you need it highly customized. And if I was growing, I wouldn’t be doing anything to save money because I would just want to add more revenue and not be messing around with internal software. Welcome back to another episode of Startups for the Rest of Us. I’m your host, Rob Walling, and in this episode I’m going to rapid fire through a handful of listener questions. I have about 10 queued up and we’ll see how many I’m able to get through. Some are earlier stage, some are text questions that have been hanging around for quite some time and I just wanted to give them their chance. Before I dive into those, I wanted to let you know that I’ve been writing again. So after starting as a blogger from 2005 until about 2011, 2012, I stopped writing essays and I moved to podcasting, YouTube, and writing books. 

Rob Walling: But over the last six months, I’ve published several essays. It’s maybe 12 to 15, and I’m sending those exclusively to my email list. If you go to robwalling.com/emails, you can sign up for that list as well as get a sample chapter of The SaaS Playbook. I’ve been doing a pretty good job of sending one email a week with brand new content. Some of the concepts are things I’ve mentioned on YouTube or I’ve talked about on the podcast, but these are concepts, frameworks, thought processes that I’ve never put into writing. So you won’t find these in other blog posts, essays, or books that I’ve written. One of the fan favorite topics seems to be task level, project level, and owner level thinkers, and I’ve gotten a lot of questions about that particular email, so much so that I added another one with basically me answering questions of how do you find these folks? 

Rob Walling: How expensive are they? A number of other things. So robwalling.com/emails if you want to take advantage of that and stay in the loop. And with that, let’s dive in to my first listener question. The first one is from Taryn, and they’re looking for a more opinionated take on the 5PM framework. And Taryn writes, hi Rob. I made the call this year to start something of my own. I’m in the midst of evaluating startup ideas and I found your ideas and frameworks very, very useful. You very much embody the kind of philosophy that I want to carry forward into the business or businesses I start. I’ve listened to episode 628 many, many times over the past couple of weeks, and for me, there were some parts that were difficult for me to pinpoint what exactly made a good or bad idea. And breaking in here for the listener, 628 is when I described the 5PM framework for the first time. 

Rob Walling: Back to the email: for example, when you talked about pricing, you talked about firstly whether this can work as a subscription versus one time, and that one’s clear that subscription is what we’re looking for, but when you talk about estimating the average revenue per account, it isn’t clear what’s good or bad. You also talk later about whether it’s monthly, annual or usage based, but it isn’t clear what is good or what is bad. Market is also not so clear. You mentioned that size matters a lot less for bootstrap startups versus venture backed. It wasn’t super clear if size mattered at all. After reading more of your material, I think the point is it’s got to be big enough, but it doesn’t have to be VC big. My opinion is that the podcast could have been clearer if you mentioned explicitly that size is important and maybe some guidelines as to what a good size is. 

Rob Walling: I think the other Ps and the M were super clear on how to use it as a valuation criteria. No notes there. I’m not asking for anything specific. I think from consuming more of your material and other podcast episodes, I think I’ve come to fill in the gaps in my understanding. I wonder if it’s a good time to drop any new thoughts about the 5PM framework, given that it is two years old. So thanks for writing in with this, Taryn. Yeah, it’s interesting that first episode kind of happened off the cuff. I think I invented the 5PM framework like 20 minutes before that episode. It all just kind of came pouring out and I realized, oh, this is really something. I was trying to outline a podcast episode about evaluating ideas, and I thought, what would be the things that I would want to look at? 

Rob Walling: So a couple of things. Number one, I am finishing up my next book, and I believe it addresses everything that Taryn has asked for. And the next book is called SaaS Launchpad. You’ve heard me say SaaS Launchpad over and over because I have a course by the same name, saaslaunchpad.co. And while there will be a decent amount of overlap between the course and the book, the book is what really started it all. I had a decent manuscript, we needed a course and we adapted the book into the course. Since then, I’ve added another, I think 30-40% to the book, tweaked it, actually pulled stuff back from the course to make the original book manuscript better. Ultimately, the course is going to remain kind of the source of truth. It has so much more information, so many more interviews, more depth and all that. 

Rob Walling: But the book is going to be a nice 200-225 page treatise on early stages, right? SaaS Launchpad is about how to get your business off the ground, how to come up with ideas, validate and all that. And so in that book, I did go deeper on market sizing. I talk about pricing, what’s good. I mean, the thing I struggle with is you’re asking for, if monthly, annual, or usage based, what is good, and it does kind of depend. In a perfect world, obviously you do annual, but you don’t need that to make a great business. I’ve seen monthly plus usage based businesses be incredible, and similar with average revenue per account. I mean, I built an awesome lifestyle business with 10, 20, 40, and $80 price points, and the average revenue per account was probably between $30 and $40 maybe. 

Rob Walling: And it was such a great business, but it was never going to be a multimillion dollar business. It just couldn’t. The churn was too high, the price points were too low, et cetera, et cetera. But then Drip started at $50 a month and did, what was it, like $51, $100, $149 and then call us, I think, and that even these days feels pretty low. And yet we built a multimillion dollar business. Most businesses these days that get into TinySeed do have price points in the single digit hundreds kind of as their low end. That’s not always the case, that’s not 100%, but it maybe is 70 to 80% of companies. So I guess I could have said all that in the episode, but here it is for your ears today, and if you’re interested in that book, I’m planning to do pre-orders in the fall, and you can head to robwalling.com/emails. I’ve already mentioned it in this episode, and you’ll definitely hear from me on that list as well as maybe some concepts that I’m batting around in advance of pre-launching the book. Get on the list and you’ll be the first to hear. So thanks for that question, Taryn. 

Rob Walling: My next question is not a question but a topic, and it’s something I emailed to myself, and the question is what tools should you build with vibe coding and which tools should you not? And what I was thinking of is if you are a founder of a SaaS app, and let’s say you’re doing $10K a month or you’re doing $500K a month, should you use vibe coding to build things that are not your core product? I mean, I think it goes without saying that you should be building internal features, like product features, with AI augmentation, but I hear some people talking about, oh, I’m going to go build tools that we use internally. 

Rob Walling: Instead of having Airtable, I’m going to build Airtable, right? Instead of having Notion, I’m going to vibe code Notion. That type of thing. I haven’t heard anyone say those specific examples, but you get the idea. And in my thinking, there are two reasons to vibe code something. One is to save money, and one is because you’re building it because you need something extremely custom that serves your exact needs. So let’s look at number one, saving money. If you’re growing, I would not mess around with saving money. I think it’s a waste of time. I would focus on growth because you’ve heard me do this math before. Every $1,000 of MRR you add is $12K of ARR, five times multiple, $60K of enterprise value, or of net worth, if you own the whole company. To me, spending time vibe coding something that’s going to save me $5,000 a year or $10,000 a year is probably not worth it. 

Rob Walling: I should instead be focused on growing my MRR by $1,000 that month. Now, what if you’re not growing? If you’re flat, do you build some stuff? Do you have anything better to do at that point? I mean, I would be putting my time into trying to grow, but if say you’ve been flat for 12 to 18 months, you really don’t know what else to do, you don’t want to sell right now, and you’re kind of pulling money out, really trying to just take profit out of the business. I mean, maybe that is a case where I would look at my most expensive things and see if we could vibe code them, realizing that you vibe code this, now you get to maintain it. Now you get to keep security updates, you get the patches, you do all this stuff. So it’s not just vibe coding as the cost. But that is one case where I could feasibly see considering it. 

Rob Walling: The thing that I did think about is I would never build something like an email service provider or anything with complex deliverability requirements, like really sending emails and SMS. There’s so much headache that goes along with that and the moving parts, I just don’t think you want to be worried about keeping things out of the spam box. I also at one point would’ve said, I don’t think you should build your own CRM because of the complexity and because of how many are available out there, but I have heard of some folks doing this. I think if your CRM is extremely expensive or it doesn’t do what you want it to do, right back to my first point, then maybe. I just have a tough time thinking that’s the right choice unless you really need deep integration into your data in a way that just doesn’t work with the connectors. So I think that’s probably the summary of my thoughts. The two reasons to vibe code something are probably to save money or because you need it highly customized, and if I was growing, I wouldn’t be doing anything to save money because I would just want to add more revenue and not be messing around with internal software. 

Rob Walling: My next question is advice on how to grow and market an event-based B2C SaaS. 

Steve: Hi Rob, my name is Steve and I’m a solo founder of a freemium trivia platform that lets people create and host game show style trivia games for events, classrooms, team building sessions and game nights. The business is currently around $15K MRR. We offer a monthly and annual pro subscription at $12 a month and $99 a year, but about 99% of customers choose the monthly option. The main challenge is that the product is very event driven, meaning most customers subscribe for a specific event and then cancel soon after. So the average customer sticks around for about two months, which means LTV is roughly $20 to $25. Growth so far has come mostly from SEO and word of mouth. I’ve tested meta ads in the past, but with such a low LTV, paid acquisition has felt like maybe not the best avenue for a good ROI. My question is where should I focus next to grow this business? Should I try paid ads again? If so, where? Lean more into recurring use cases like pub trivia hosts, corporate trainings, et cetera, so more into B2B land? Or would you avoid paid ads and double down on organic channels like SEO? I love your thoughts on marketing an event-based B2C SaaS where customers are willing to pay but often only need the product for a short period of time. Thanks. 

Rob Walling: So I appreciate the question. I think the thing that I struggle with, Steve, is I really don’t give advice on B2C or two-sided marketplaces, and it’s because these businesses are very difficult to grow. You mentioned trying paid ads. I don’t know of B2C businesses where that works. I know some direct to consumer businesses that are selling physical products where ads work, but to have a lifetime value of $20-25-30, you don’t have any money to market it. The only ways you can market a consumer facing business that I know of are virality, word of mouth, SEO, the free stuff, because you can’t afford to spend or invest any money on marketing. And that’s one reason why B2C is so hard: high churn, high customer support, non-technical users. I mean the list goes on and on and on. Honestly, my advice is don’t. I would look for: is there a Startups for the Rest of Us for B2C apps? That’s what I would look for. And if there isn’t, there’s probably a reason for that because B2C apps are brutal. They’re like eating glass. Two-sided marketplaces are as well. So I wish I could help you out more with this, but what you’ve tried is about what you can do, and B2C apps are just not in my wheelhouse. I had one back in the day and the economics were so bad that I swore I would never do it again. And in fact, Patrick McKenzie and I at the very first MicroConf each gave a talk on some B2C elements. He had a bingo card creator, and I had Wedding Toolbox, which was like a wedding website thing for consumers, and we both said, never do B2C again. 

Rob Walling: So wish I could help you on this one. Thanks for the question. The next question is from Michael. Michael says, hey Rob. I’m a founder who built a small tech startup outside Silicon Valley. It didn’t scale and it failed. What followed wasn’t a pivot or an exit, but burnout, financial collapse, and exile. That’s interesting. Why were you exiled? Most people who fail in Silicon Valley, that’s kind of a badge of honor, and unless the founder does something negligent or incompetent or illegal, that’s usually not a big deal to fail in Silicon Valley. But let’s continue with the email. I had to rebuild from zero without funding, without a network, and without the usual startup safety nets. My question is how do you think about rebuilding a startup career after failing, when you’re outside the Silicon Valley ecosystem, older, and starting again in a new country, not in theory, but in day-to-day decisions: what to keep, what to drop, and what not to chase anymore? 

Rob Walling: Love to hear your perspective, especially for founders who don’t have access to capital, hype, or a second chance backed by a brand name. Thank you for the work you do for founders like us. I mean, it’s an interesting question. I still don’t understand the exile thing. Financial collapse and burnout, I mean, I’ve been through both of those, and a lot of Silicon Valley companies go through these things, but that part still doesn’t make sense to me. I think I’ll just answer the question. If you’re building a company when you don’t have access to capital, hype, or a second chance backed by a brand name, you’re a bootstrapper. I would build it the same way that I built all my companies. I would either stair step it, which is what you hear me say a lot on this show, or I would just build at nights and weekends while I worked a day job. 

Rob Walling: You can do it without funding, you can do it without a network, and you can do it without any safety nets. Now, I would during this time try to build my network, not my audience. I’d be interacting in the communities that I was interested in, to be around other founders. I said this a couple of episodes ago when I talked about the TinySeed kickoff and the value of being in person with other founders, but also being in online communities: Indie Hackers, MicroConf Connect, et cetera, and that’s what you do. Thousands and thousands of businesses are built every year by people who are exactly in your position. They’re bootstrapping, they don’t have capital, they don’t have hype, they don’t have a brand name, and they hustle and they figure out where the gaps are. What’s the product that needs to exist that customers are clamoring for? 

Rob Walling: You have some idea how to build, market, and sell, and that’s really what this show focuses on. Every episode is usually focused on this exact concept. It requires a bunch of hard work. I mean, I think that’s the thing: hard work, luck, and skill, right? There’s going to be a bit of luck. Let’s throw that out because I’m not counting on luck. Skill is going to be the things that you’ve learned already and the things that you’re going to have to learn to bring this to success. And hard work is the key component. You hear me talk so much about grinding and doing the things you don’t want to do. Having access to capital is a luxury that allows you to not do a lot of the stuff you don’t want to do. But in this case, if you’re bootstrapping, you are going to have to grind, whether you’re doing it nights and weekends around family and a day job or whether you’re doing it full time. But you still have to do the things you don’t want to do that move the needle. You probably won’t be able to do freemium because you can’t kick your revenue super far out into the future, and you need to charge enough that you don’t have to find a million customers to make $10,000 a month or whatever you need to live on. 

Rob Walling: That would be my number one goal: how am I able to get to that number such that I own all of my time? And then the race really starts. That is the new starting line that I’d be going after. I’d be putting every modicum of brain power, time, attention, and energy into getting to that magic number, $10K a month, and maybe your number is slightly different. Once you’re there, you have the freedom to really start growing. So thanks for that question. 

Travis: Hey Rob, I’m Travis and I run fitplum.com. FitPlum is a piece of software that helps SaaS companies reduce churn, increase retention, increase word of mouth. It does so by running a process, kind of coined the product market fit engine. It’s something that the Superhuman team has talked a lot about, and Sean Ellis kind of famously coined the product market fit survey, and so I built a software product that productizes that process, which I’ve found very effective in other ventures. And my question is really around go-to-market and positioning for this first batch of customers. I’m still kind of in search of my first couple hundred customers, and I am trying to figure out whether it’s better to start with people who are already solution aware, who maybe have read the blogs from Superhuman and Sean Ellis on First Round Capital about the product market fit engine approach, or if that’s too specific and niche and I’m better off just going with the promise of attacking churn and getting you to the next stage of product market fit and increasing word of mouth. It’s essentially a customer research platform that delivers you a focused roadmap and some segmentation around who your ideal customers are. So I might experiment with the super, super niche, super narrow targeting to start with and just go manually find those people, but let me know if that sounds like a trap or if you have feedback about how to approach that and find those people since it’s going to be so niche. Appreciate your feedback. Thank you. 

Rob Walling: This is an interesting question. In a perfect world, I would start with this smaller, tighter niche. You really want to find solution-aware people, and I would put in a month or two looking for them and then evaluate if that is too small, if it is too niche. But I would at least give it a try first because if I’m having to educate people not only on what this does, but how it does it. I guess that’s when I look at your H1. The H1 is “find product market fit with confidence, zero busy work.” I guess the question is, they could be solution aware without really knowing about the product market fit survey. No, on second thought, if they were solution aware, then they would kind of have the idea that a piece of software could help them find product market fit, and I don’t think most people are going to know that. 

Rob Walling: So at best they’re going to be problem aware unless they know about the survey that you’ve talked about. So with that said, yeah, I think my initial gut instinct is where I’d go: I would try to find people that are solution aware, they’re going to be so much easier to sell to, talk to, and convince that this is a thing, that it actually works, that it’s viable. And if I tried it for a month or two and I couldn’t find people who are solution aware, then I would switch to problem aware. Look, if I had time, I would do both at the same time, if I’m honest. But if you have to focus on only one, I’d probably start small and expand if the initial approach didn’t work. So thanks for that question, Travis. I hope it was helpful. 

Rob Walling: My next question is anonymous, and it’s actually a comment I received via my email list. robwalling.com/emails if you want to sign up for that. In my email, I said: respond and let me know the number one problem you’re facing, and this anonymous respondent said, I constantly feel like I’m falling behind. The moment I come up with an idea, someone else launches it with a larger budget and faster coding velocity. It’s discouraging. I start feeling like my work isn’t good enough. I get to about 80 or 90% completion only to abandon the project. This has happened roughly eight times, and I can’t seem to break through that barrier. Well, I’ve learned a lot. I haven’t managed to make that final leap forward. And so I wanted to offer this as an example both to listeners, but also as a response to this person. I did email them directly as well, but I said, my sentiment is that it sounds like your natural inclination is to start things but not finish them. 

Rob Walling: Some people are really good at finishing things, and then it takes heaven and earth to get them to start a new thing, and other people are great starters and don’t finish anything. So I would look internally to fight against this. To me, this is a mental hurdle. I would either look internally through therapy, through a coach, I would find a co-founder who can keep me accountable. I would join a mastermind group and ask for accountability. What you need is an outside sanity check. If you can’t get over this blind spot yourself, a blind spot is just a weakness that you haven’t identified yet, and it’s something that will keep biting you until you realize, oh, this is my natural inclination. I probably need to fight against this. I think that you should ship things even if someone else launches something similar. It sounds like you might be looking for excuses not to ship because that feels scary, right? Shipping feels scary and pulling it and not doing anything is less scary. This is not an uncommon problem, and I don’t see a silver bullet fix other than trying a bunch of things to see what works. Is it self-accountability? Is it mastermind accountability? Is it a co-founder? It’s very much a mindset thing. It’s a common early stage entrepreneur kind of trap to fall into, and I think many of us do fall into this. To me, the way to get around it is to try a lot of things, and you’re kind of trying to trick your own psyche into doing what’s smart and getting you towards results rather than your natural inclination. 

Rob Walling: And my next question is about resources for early stage SaaS founders. 

Caller: Hey, how’s it going? So I’m reading The SaaS Playbook and you say that you decided to focus the book on topics that’ll help a business with some semblance of product market fit take its company to the next level. What recommendations, reading or otherwise, do you have for a brand new SaaS that’s trying to get to that point, trying to get some semblance of product market fit, trying to get to the point where The SaaS Playbook would kind of take over? Thanks. 

Rob Walling: What’s funny is I did not plant this in this episode. I dragged over just a slew of questions and I didn’t really read them in advance, and I’m realizing that of course, saaslaunchpad.co is the course that I created with the help of Producer Ron at MicroConf, and that is exactly what it’s designed to do, as well as my new book SaaS Launchpad, which as I said earlier in the episode, I will be taking pre-orders for hopefully this fall of 2026, and you can go to robwalling.com/emails if you want to hear about that. 

Rob Walling: And my next question is about how to get enough traffic to start validating an idea. And this person wrote in and said, my number one problem I’m facing as a founder right now is finding out how to validate our new product. Google traffic is too expensive. General Facebook traffic doesn’t convert well. How can we get enough eyeballs on the product to see if people want it? I have a couple thoughts here. There are two ways to do it. There’s a landing page and driving traffic, but there’s also having one-on-one conversations. These conversations don’t need to scale. You don’t need to have a high enough lifetime value in order to have 20, 30, 40 conversations by pinging people on LinkedIn, by announcing on your social media, by scratching and clawing and doing whatever it takes to get in conversations and trying to find out if people want it. It’s customer development, right? Customer conversations. So that’s one way. I tend to do both ways, which is have those conversations cold one-on-one, warm one-on-one, and also put up a landing page and generate traffic. 

Rob Walling: When I’m doing that, I don’t worry about making money. I actually don’t think Google traffic is too expensive. I think if Facebook or Instagram traffic isn’t converting, I would probably spend more time trying to optimize those. I don’t need to make money on the Google traffic, even if I’m overpaying. I mean, unless it’s some outrageous amount, like paying $1,000 for each email or something. But I am really just trying to find people who want to solve the problem that I am solving. But then there are a bunch of other ways. Go through the 20 B2B SaaS marketing approaches that I list in The SaaS Playbook and ask yourself, which of these could be done before I have a product? Maybe I just have a landing page, maybe I have a landing page plus a blog, maybe it’s a full marketing website but it’s just a coming soon. 

Rob Walling: So the big five SaaS marketing approaches: SEO, yes, you can do that without a product. Pay-per-click advertising, yes, you can do that without a product. Cold outreach, warm outreach, yes, you can do that without a product. Integration marketing, which is where you do integrations, you can’t do that without a product, but what you could do is partnerships, like a joint venture partnership, which is integration without writing any code. If you know people in your industry, this is where I say build your network, not your audience. You go to your network and you say, which of you has a product or a list of customers or an audience, and can help get me in front of them to help generate this traffic? That’s a partnership. That’s what I’d be thinking about. And content marketing, which really a lot of that turns into SEO, but it could be putting up YouTube videos and going more with the founder-first, audience-first approach. 

Rob Walling: Then we have other still important marketing approaches. Affiliate marketing: you’re probably not going to do this without a product, but this is where if you have a great network of people who could be affiliates, what they might do is kick you a favor and say, look, I have this product I’m trying to validate. Can I come on your podcast? Or will you mention it to your audience as something interesting? Like, hey, my friend is launching X, Y, Z thing. Go check it out, to drive some traffic and to see if folks come and sign up. There are in-person events and trade shows: not cheap. Can you do it without a product? Absolutely. You could go there to learn. Free tools, engineering as marketing: absolutely could do this without a product. I believe Ruben Gamez built several signature tools before SignWell existed and was generating traffic with those. 

Rob Walling: Then there are hangouts, these are where your ICP, your customer type, hangs out: forums, private Slack groups, Facebook groups, and subreddits. There are Q&A sites like Quora, Stack Exchange, if any of these still exist after AI, and on and on. I go through even more: display ads and other people’s audiences, and most of these actually work without a product. The question you have to ask yourself is, if I can’t generate traffic today, if I can’t find people who will buy it today, how will I find them once I actually have a product? It’s a question I always ask myself. So thanks for that question, anonymous. I hope it was helpful. 

Rob Walling: And for my last question of the day, Quentin emails and writes, hi Rob. I’m a bit of a wantrepreneur. I’ve been running a B2C SaaS for about five years, and I’m starting my next venture, this time B2B. How does one run cold outreach for a self-service product? Couldn’t seem to find any videos where you touch on this. Do I just say, hey, this might be useful to you? I’ve been burning cash on Google Ads, which is working, but at my current CPA, I need to find another channel. So this is a nice piggyback on the last one. I like it when things line up. Almost seems like I am doing this in a calculated manner, and I really planned this, but I did not. But this is kind of a double click into the question that I had just answered. So number one, you can’t do cold outreach for a self-service product and make money. The minimum annual contract value for making cold outreach work, making the economics of that work, is about $10,000 US. It used to be $7,500. Well, it was about $6,000 to $7,500. I remember when we first started TinySeed, that was my rule of thumb. Since then, not only has it gotten more crowded, but inflation has literally impacted numbers. So it’s about $10,000 a year. I don’t know of a single self-serve product that is $10,000 a year. So you’re not going to do this in a way that’s actually scalable, meaning in a way where the economics work. So if you’re trying to actually do this in an ongoing, scalable way, it just won’t work. 

Rob Walling: And that’s why low price products are hard to market: because of all the 20 B2B SaaS marketing approaches, if you have a price point of $50 a month, I think you can do four or maybe five of them. If you have a price point of $500 a month, you can do between five and ten of them. And if you have $5,000 a month, you can do all 20 of them. And cold outreach is one where you need at least, well, not $5,000 a month, but you need, let’s say, almost $1,000 a month to make it work. But if you’re just doing this for customer development and to get in conversations, and you don’t need to make money and you’re trying to validate the product, then you do cold outreach and you do demos. You literally say, do you have this problem? I can talk to you about it, and you do demos. I won’t say it’s a waste of time, but it’s not the best use of time if you’re selling something for $20, $30, $40 a month. But if you’re doing it for learning, it can make sense. If you’re truly trying to scale it, that’s why these days I just wouldn’t start. 

Rob Walling: If I wanted to build a seven or eight figure SaaS company, I shouldn’t say I wouldn’t start one that has a lower price point, because Drip started at $50 a month, but I would want to make sure that on the top end, we had plans that are $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 a month. And realize this does also depend on your goals. I mentioned earlier I had a product that was $10, $20, $40, and $80 a month. Those are the four price points, and I turned that into an amazing $30,000 a month lifestyle business. It was self-service, it was great, but I didn’t do cold outreach for it. I just couldn’t. I had to go after the marketing approaches that worked for it. And so if you are looking for that great little lifestyle business of $10K a month, $20, $30K a month, $40K, whatever, you get the idea, you can have these low price points. Once you get into the millions, it’s very, very difficult to do that because your churn is so high, so much customer support, blah, blah, blah. It’s the same things I always say about lower price points. So thanks for that question, Quentin. Hope it was helpful to you and all the listeners. 

Rob Walling: Thanks for hanging out with me for another 30 something minutes today. I really appreciate being in your earbuds, and I take that honor very seriously. Hope I provided some entertainment and a little bit of education, insights, inspiration, and ideas for you today. Thanks for listening this week and every week. This is Rob Walling, signing off from episode 840.