Episode 821 | How to Do Founder-Led Marketing (with Jay Clouse)

Rob Walling :
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Visit mercury.com to apply online in minutes. Mercury is a FinTech company, not an FDIC, insured bank banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA members FDIC. Welcome to another episode of Startups For the Rest Of Us. I’m your host, Rob Walling, and in this episode I sit down with the founder of Creator Science. His name is Jay Klaus, and he spent more time thinking about being a creator and educating an audience on a particular topic than most people I know he’s built an entire business around helping folks do that. So I wanted to bring him on because he’s such a deep thinker about this topic of what I’m saying, founder-led marketing, but it’s really, it’s going out as a human and helping educate folks, creating content for them and getting people to pay attention in an age where attention is very valuable. And this is actually a two part episode. 

So the first part you’ll hear on this feed and then on Jay’s podcast called Creator Science, which you can hit in any podcast catcher. He interviews me about SaaS and being a creator, how I prioritize things, what my week looks like. We talked through a bunch of super interesting topics, so you’re going to want to check that out on the Creator Science Podcast. Before I dive into my conversation with Jay MicroComp, Europe is in Iceland, September 21st through the 23rd. That’s 2026, and this event will sell out. We have sold out our events for the past, I think three years. So if you want a ticket, you’re going to want to go buy one now. In fact, early bird tickets may have already sold out, but you’re going to want to go to MicroConf europe.com if you want to see me in Iceland, along with 150, 160 of your favorite bootstrapped founder, friends MicroConf europe.com. And with that, let’s dive into my conversation with Jay. Jay Klaus, welcome to Startups For the Rest Of Us. Hey, excited to be here. So for people who don’t know who you are, they haven’t seen you on LinkedIn, on YouTube, maybe heard your podcast, what is Creator Science and what are you working on these days?  

Jay Clouse:
Creative Science is a media company. It’s an educational media company where it’s a very meta, but I help content creators be better content creators. And I think about the content space as a spectrum with polls of entertainment and education and everyone’s kind of somewhere in that spectrum. I’m much more closer to the education side where the folks in my audience tend to be teachers to their audience. They have some specific outcome or transformation they’re trying to achieve, and my audience are people who have already achieved that and now they’re kind of facing in the direction and saying, here’s how you can do that too.  

Rob Walling :
Your audience is a little more Rob Walling, a little less Mr. Beast,  

Jay Clouse:
Correct?  

Rob Walling :
Yes. And you were in the startup world for a while. Did you start your own company or did you work in the venture backed space?  

Jay Clouse:
There was a founder in, he was based in Cincinnati, Ohio, and he had started a ticketing company, kind of a StubHub competitor, and he was going through an accelerator and he brought me in and calls me a co-founder generously. And I will take that and say, sure, because I was basically there from day two. And we built that. We raised some angel funding both from the accelerator and then some angels afterwards. We were acquired about two years after that for a non-life changing sum of money. And it was an awesome experience for the most part. And it was also intense. And I looked at that and I said, I am not going to do that again unless I really love whatever problem that company is solving. So then I took a product management role at a company that had gone through a series C at that point in the healthcare space, and they raised from, this venture firm is called Drive Capital here in Columbus, Ohio. 

And they were, I guess technically the second investment out of their first fund. Those guys came from Sequoia and they were unicorn hunting. They were trying to build unicorns and show that you could do that from the Midwest. So there was so much pressure on the founder of that company, and I was in a leadership position where I was close enough to kind of see what his life was like, and I thought, man, that was even worse than my first experience. So it just made me really feel like this is not really the world or the path for me. And I didn’t know what that meant, but at some point it became clear to me when I was working at that company that I needed to go back out on my own and I would figure it out, whatever that meant, I will find a way to make enough money to survive. 

And that quickly became facilitating mastermind groups and then learning how the content game was played even though it wasn’t really called content at the time. What I knew was I liked writing, I wanted to be a writer, and I found Seth Godin and I found this guy, Matthew Kimberly and Brian Harris. And what I could figure out was these guys just send emails and that’s basically the backbone of their business and that sounds great. How do I do that? And so it was early sort of info products type of world, and as I am trying to figure out, okay, how does this business model work? I also had the question of what am I going to write about this week? And so I would investigate how does this business model work? And then I’d write about what I was learning. Fast forward far enough. And what you have are people who are also trying to figure out that business model learning from me, and that is creator science today. When was that? Started in 2017.  

Rob Walling :
Okay. Now you’ve written about leaving the startup space and you talked about having a limited belief that you didn’t think that you were creative. And a good chunk of this audience is technical founders. It’s not everybody, but say it’s 70%, 80%, somewhere in there. And a lot of them might think the same thing about themselves. That’s not me. I’m not super creative. So if someone does think that their product or their space is conducive to founder led marketing, they kind of have to get over that. So I’m curious, two part question. How did you get past that in yourself and maybe what would you say to a founder who’s convinced they’re just not creative or not a marketing person?  

Jay Clouse:
Yeah, I remember this very distinctly. So in January, 2017, I started working with a coach who was here locally and a bunch of my friends had worked with this person. They’re like, Chris really got me unstuck. He helped me get out of my own head and move forward. And I didn’t even really know what outcome I was looking for. I just knew I’m not happy in this job and I feel like I’m probably going to leave it at some point, but I also feel like I’m stuck. So let’s see what this experience is. In one of the early pieces of homework he gave me, he said, go out for a walk. Take a pad and paper with a pen. Do not bring your phone. Do not bring headphones. You just need to go for a walk. And at some point you will start to hear whatever tape is playing in your head, and I want you to write that down. 

And that’s what I wrote down. I realized that I had this narrative that I was not an artist, I was not a creative person, and I felt like I didn’t have much to contribute because of that. And the second half of that homework assignment was, okay, what if we instead of believing that was true, what would it look like to believe the opposite? How can we make you believe that you are creative and that you do have something to contribute? And the answer to that was, well, you need to create some evidence. So I decided I like writing. I know that about myself, or at least that’s a story I told about myself and believed. So what do writers do? They write, and I gave myself the challenge to write every day for the next year. And what I knew about myself was I will deliver on any promise I make externally. 

So my solution to writing every day was to go on Facebook and tell people, Hey friends, I’m going to start an email newsletter and I’m going to be writing every day. Go here to sign up. And having any number of subscribers, which was very small at the time, was enough positive tension to get me to do that. So I wrote every day for a year, and it’s hard to write every day for a year. What do I have to talk about since yesterday? Well, basically only what I thought about and did in the last 24 hours, which was studying some of these content creators, which we didn’t call ’em at the time, to understand how that worked. And so that became a lot of what I was writing about first year. So to answer your question, if people are listening to this and they’re like, how do I solve that? 

I really like the exercise of saying, what if I believed the opposite? What would need to be true for me to believe the opposite? I would probably need to create some evidence to the contrary. What would that look like? Does that look like recording a video? I saw a guy, SaaS founder, I think his tool was something in the video space and he realized, okay, I need to start creating videos if I’m going to have a SaaS company in the video space. And you just started recording videos that he is posting every day on X. First one went really well. The next couple did not go as well, but he kept doing it, kept doing it. So I think it is about creating evidence to support the identity you want to start believing in.  

Rob Walling :
Yeah, I like that. And that will automatically force you to do it. And if you do it enough, then you may start to get better at it, right? The idea is repetition  

Jay Clouse:
And we go through phases. Last year was a challenging mental health year for me, and what I realized at the end of December, after a very intense December, was I haven’t done any strength training for six months. And so I put together a plan with my friend Claude and Claude created some workout plans for me. And since then I haven’t missed more than one day of working out. And now it’s just automatic. I start to feel itchy if I haven’t worked out that day. And the pendulum can probably swing too far in that direction as well. But by and large, if I’m trying to make a positive lifestyle or identity change, building a string of successful days doing that thing has always served me.  

Rob Walling :
So can you give me examples of folks in your community of the niches that they’re selling to? Your audience is creators who want to educate. My audience is B2B SaaS founders. What are three or four others that are some the wall? I mean, I just have to imagine there’s awesome little  

Jay Clouse:
Leashes. Yeah, I like going to just our members directory and scrolling. So here’s a guy who teaches people how to learn the fiddle. Here’s a guy who teaches people how to get the most out of every native Apple application on their computer. Here’s a woman who’s a world champion pole dancer who teaches people movement. Here’s a photographer from Iceland. We had another woman who teaches people how to run marathons or how to train for marathons if they’re on plant-based diets. So it’s like super specific. We had a guy who taught high school defensive line coaches how to train their players to be more effective. It can be extremely specific and narrow, but a lot of the times the pathway is these people were known for being good at something and so they started working with people and at some point that became unsustainable because there was just more demand for that time than supply or interest in doing one-on-one consultations. So that became the beginning of content creation.  

Rob Walling :
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And the reason I wanted to ask you that specific question and have you rattle some of those off, is I want to encourage folks in this audience, SaaS founders who may think that the only people that can make money or that can build an audience in a space, are those teaching other people how to make money online or you know what I mean? It’s like, well, you have to teach other entrepreneurs because a mistake I see is there’s a SaaS founder who starts, let’s pick a random thing like software for gym memberships and fitness studios and blah, blah, blah. And they go on Twitter and they start, I’m going to tell my entrepreneurial journey story and I’m going to go on YouTube and tell my entrepreneurial journey story. And it’s like, guess who cares about that? Other entrepreneurs, that’s not your audience, that’s not your customer base. 

You want to create content that gym owners or gym general managers are going to consume. And so by you saying fiddling and defensive linemen, it’s like you can create an audience in any of these spaces. There’s a couple guys that come to MicroConf who started Wash Dry Fold, POS, so it’s for laundromat. So I think they owned a laundromat or two and they wrote software as a POS system. And now I think it’s the entire kind of operating system. If you have a laundromat, they just started a podcast and a YouTube channel within the past month or two. And it is so niche if you watch it because they’re not going after other entrepreneurs don’t do the, oh, I want Indie Hackers to watch this thing. They’re going after laundromat owners or aspiring laundromat owners. And that’s the thing that I think I want to encourage folks to do is, yeah, go. I want to hear your thoughts on this. Yeah,  

Jay Clouse:
Yeah, totally agree. And I understand where that perspective of this is just a chain or our friend Dan a tropical MBA called this a self flicking ice cream cone, which I don’t actually know what that analogy means, but it’s an interesting visual. Dan has great metaphors. This idea that online entrepreneurship is teaching online entrepreneurship, we feel that way because we are online entrepreneurs. So guess what content we are seeing people who are trying to target us as online entrepreneurs. But what’s really interesting about this moment in time today, and there’s a strong positive side and a strong negative side here, it’s never been easier to get attention for niche content, but it’s also never been harder to sustain a relationship with that follower over time. And what I mean by that is all these platforms now have gotten so good at connecting high performing content with the right consumers of that content. 

They have a hard time understanding an account That changes subjects a lot though. And sometimes that’s just a problem for people who have been internet dinosaurs and have had accounts on a platform for a very long time. For example, my Instagram account is probably since 2009 I want to say. So anytime I publish something, Instagram’s kind of like, is this for your high school friends, your college friends? Is it when you’re selling tickets? Is it when you were doing this or that? Whereas I just last week started a fresh Instagram account because I said, I want an account that’s just for my writing and I want it just to serve people who like this style of writing. And I followed a couple of people, a couple of accounts that I know are that, and all I’ve been doing this week is scrolling Instagram and engaging with accounts like that. 

And every day it gets better at showing me only new accounts that fit the dimensions of what I’m trying to reach. And when you start posting, then it’s so much more likely to put you in front of the right audience as people like you as people who frequent the accounts you’re following. So the fear a lot of people have coming into the space is starting from zero because gosh, it’s so hard to start from zero, but it’s kind of counterintuitive today. Starting from zero might actually be the easiest path to reaching the niche specific audience you’re trying to reach. As painful as it is, I think it’s actually going to be net faster for you, but then again, also followers have never meant less because just because someone follows you does not mean they’re going to see your next post. You’re basically auditioning for even your own audience with everything you publish. So it’s a very interesting time in content right now.  

Rob Walling :
And that’s where there’s social media. You don’t own the audience because the algorithm owns it. Right? To me it’s podcasts and email lists are where you mostly own the audience. I know podcasts could be debated, but we have 111, maybe 113,000 YouTube subscribers, and we have low tens of thousands podcast subscribers per month, or I’m sorry, not even per month per episode or whatever. And we get more listens to the podcasts than most of our YouTube videos. Now, some of our YouTube videos break out to your point, we have a Jason Cohen video that has a half a million, and I have an ideas video that did 260,000 views. And so we have a bunch in the six figures, but most of them, they get to five or 10 K and then they’re like, even though we have 115,000, so do you agree with that assessment of email and podcasts is more that owned media or how do you think about it?  

Jay Clouse:
I split the platforms into two buckets, and I call them discovery platforms and relationship platforms. Discovery platforms are anything with an algorithm where there’s inherent mechanism for connecting new consumers to content, and then relationship platforms, there is no mechanism. It’s decentralized. So on the relationship side, there’s only a few, and I agree with you, it’s email podcasting, SMS and private communities. So to me, the game is using discovery platforms to reduce your dependency on discovery platforms. It’s basically like, I’m going to go over here. I’m going to perform for the algorithm so that I can get people to my email list or so that I can get people to my podcast or private community. And some people do SMS really successfully, especially in the e-com space. But that is kind of the game today is to say, I don’t want to depend on discovery platforms because that can be, it’s certainly going to be changed if not completely eliminated from being useful to you, but the longer that you can leverage it to not need it, the stronger your actual leverage becomes.  

Rob Walling :
I like that way of thinking about it, and I think I want to be clear that I think of the startups For the Rest Of Us listener audience who have a SaaS product, I think there is probably only a percentage, maybe it’s 20% that should think about founder-led marketing. Maybe it’s 30, maybe it’s 10, but I don’t think 80% of founders should be doing founder-led marketing. It’s just a personal opinion. I think maybe they don’t have the desire to do it. Maybe they should just focus on SEO and ads. Maybe their customers really aren’t wanting to engage in this way. Right? On social media, I think of less technical folks, and I think that there are other marketing approaches. I mean, I guess across tiny Seeds, 210 companies, there were like 4% of those, maybe five. I think it was just under 5% that had any type of audience or have ever built any type of audience. 

And yet we have dozens of companies doing six, I mean, sorry, doing seven and eight figures in revenue. So SaaS is a thing, right? I am not saying it’s different than your space where everyone is creating an audience, right? That’s my framing of it. The reason I want to say that is I’m wondering if you have any mental model of if someone decides, Hey, I kind of do want to do this, and maybe they’re not good at it, how can they maybe evaluate their space or their niche to be like, I’m for laundromats or I’m for gyms, or I’m for software for Congress people or whatever. How would you even think personally about is this viable? Should I try to build an audience and be a content creator as marketer, it’s founder led marketing as a term I’m probably going to use, but how would you think about that?  

Jay Clouse:
I have this advice for just creators in general, but I would say it’s even more strongly true for SaaS founders, which is if you’re pulled towards it, if you’re intrinsically interested in doing it, do it. If you’re not, don’t. And I would say for SaaS founders, if you’re not, absolutely don’t. Because you have to be so ingrained, engulfed just in the culture of your people, in the culture of the platform, even to do it successfully or at least to a degree where it’s stronger than the opportunity costs. So I think if you have the energy and enthusiasm, great, follow it and do what gives you energy and enthusiasm in that space. Of course, the common advice is find other people who are doing the same thing for the same audience and see what’s working and build off of that. I can find that a little soul sucking at times. 

I struggle with doing that. And ultimately at any point if you’re like, I am not enjoying this, I dunno how to explain it. It just comes through and it just doesn’t work. You have to really be enjoying it or the people on the other side aren’t going to enjoy it either. And then what was the point? It’s just a big opportunity cost. So I really think you have to say, what am I most pulled towards? And I mean that at a platform level too. If you think, okay, I am interested in doing short form vertical video, okay, great, you could do that on TikTok, you could do that on Instagram, you could do that on YouTube shorts, you could even do that on LinkedIn. Each of those platforms could take the same asset. But honestly, the more time goes on, the more these platforms kind of separate in terms of just the culture of the platform. 

What you do in short form video is not going to be as effective on LinkedIn as it is on TikTok and vice versa. So you really even have to start with where do I feel like I enjoy consuming the most? Because then you’re naturally going to have the benefit of being more in tune with the culture and the norms and what is working in that space. Over the last couple months, I’ve made my wife my unofficial head of Instagram just because anytime I ask her to make anything for me on Instagram, it’s the best performing content I make on Instagram because she just knows it. She knows what the Instagram vibe is, she knows what the culture is like. She knows what’s trending right now. She knows how to put this stuff together better than I do, and that’s just because she spends time as a consumer of that platform and as a consumer, she is naturally being a student of that platform. So I think you have to follow that energy.  

Rob Walling :
I like that. I would also add for SaaS founders is you do have to ask yourself the question, where are my customers? Because if you have software, we have a TinySeed founder who has software for tattoo artists. They’re all on Instagram software for realtors, they’re all on Instagram. They may be on Twitter X unlikely. So Twitter is a very different space than it was a few years ago, and they’re tattoo artists on LinkedIn, probably not. So not that anyone really knows LinkedIn, but I do think that’s an additional question you have to ask in this case because when you’re advising creators, it’s just go where the audience is and go with what. But I think as SaaS founders, we have to specifically, at least the first place I would take a crack at is where are my people? For example, producer Ron and I have talked about potentially doing a TikTok channel, which isn’t even call the shed. I literally don’t have it, don’t have it on my phone. And we’ve looked at it and I’m like, who are the entrepreneurs, the founders, the kind of SaaS people on there that are actually giving good advice and are not just make money online bullshit, and I can’t find any. And so I could be the first, but I don’t think I have it in me.  

Jay Clouse:
Yeah, I mean TikTok ISS at a really weird place right now. Literally, I’ve never been active on TikTok, but they recently with the new acquisition change their terms and conditions that you have to agree to. And before agreeing to that, I just deleted the app. I’m like, Nope, because done, it seems like, I dunno, it seemed like there could be surveillance in that, so I was like, eh. Anyway, 

Sometimes any platform you’re on, if you feel like you’re the first, maybe that’s true or to your point, maybe it’s because there’s no demand there. And so I think that’s probably especially important in your case as well. I think each of these platforms has their own sort of gravity, and so Instagram seems to be the largest cross section, but it’s not absolutely true. YouTube is in an interesting place from a short form perspective because the short form viewers on YouTube are not the same as long form viewers on YouTube and short form vertical video that performs on Instagram probably won’t perform the same way on YouTube shorts and the viewers of shorts are, like I said, distinct from YouTube long form. So you might find that, okay, my audience is actually, it exists on YouTube, but in long form and then that asset is not super portable elsewhere. You could clip it, you can try to do that, but clipping is a difficult strategy  

Rob Walling :
Too. We’ve toyed around with it and we don’t. I mean, the only thing we used to try to repurpose this podcast to YouTube didn’t work, didn’t work at all, and then we tried to repurpose YouTube videos to LinkedIn, didn’t work fail. I think the point that you’re making is for the most part, you have to go after a platform or two and it’s native, even if it’s the same concept you’re communicating, you have to communicate it in more of a native form for that. Is that what you’re saying?  

Jay Clouse:
100%. That’s only become more true over time, and I expect it’ll get even more extreme.  

Rob Walling :
Yeah. Question. So if a founder is interested in doing this, right, they want to do founder led marketing and they have five hours a week or something and they don’t like being on camera, how should they think about producing content? What is the minimum viable version of building an audience? I brought up video, but I mean there’s written and there’s audio and there’s video. Is video where it’s at these days? How do you think about all this?  

Jay Clouse:
I think there’s probably more consumers of video than there are of text. I think that is probably true. So a lot of big numbers would be on your side, but it’s a very competitive game and there are very specific points of leverage within video. You have to be really good at the hook in that video, and there are, I would say, technically three different types of hooks. There’s the visual hook, what I see on screen, there’s what you’re saying, and then there’s even text on screen. So it’s like what you’re reading, it’s what you’re reading, what you’re seeing as the backdrop of that and what’s being said. So there’s just so many points of failure if you’re not really bought into winning that game that it’s going to be hard. I actually think, especially for folks who are building companies and you have a little bit of a budget, if you have a little bit of a budget, probably the fastest way to get results is to go and hire one of the best agencies you can find. 

And I’m not big on hiring agencies most of the time because I think the incentives of the business model are misaligned long term, but if you hire the best and they’re going to be expensive, you’re basically hiring them to download a lot of knowledge to you and your team very quickly. You don’t even have to hire them to do the work itself necessarily. You could say, can I hire you to help train my team over the next three months so that you can shortcut the learning cycle and get into it faster, avoid a lot of the long slow learning that happens by doing, but just really try to compress that. I think it’s a smart strategy today. Or if you can hire them to really help produce things and you have the budget for that, that’s great too, but minimum viable audience, it’s so case dependent on, as you said, where your audience is, what platform we’re talking about that it’s hard to really give broader advice than that.  

Rob Walling :
Yeah, it would have to be almost like, well, what’s your app? Oh, for gyms? Okay, well, let’s take a peek around and I’d probably look at who are the big creators on YouTube that are catering to gyms, and then I’d go to Insta and then I go to TikTok and I would want to get an idea. I know you said that can be soul sucking to see other people doing it, but if I already know that my audience, my customer base is a certain niche or a certain vertical, I probably already do know who the influencers are in that space.  

Jay Clouse:
And I would imagine a lot of the SaaS folks you talk to, one of the playbooks that companies run or you help them run is micro influencers, like going to people who already have an audience within that space and doing some sort of partnership to put your company in a positive light. I think that’s another way that it’s not quite hiring an agency to understand that platform, but I think that would also shortcut your knowledge a little bit. It might just be the strategy anyway instead of a founder led marketing. It’s like, okay, we recognize these platforms are important. Let’s get really good at finding some partners within this space. There’s a company called Ridge, which I think I already mentioned that Marcus Brownley started working with, but before he worked with them, they built a reputation, the creator space as being very creator friendly as a company where they were trying to be the first sponsor on a bunch of channels and trying to give very good terms and work with these companies. And I do think the relationships you build with creators in your space, they probably talk to each other, can be a shortcut. You mentioned build your network as being as important as build your audience and building your network of content creators within your space I think is a big potential part of that  

Rob Walling :
A hundred percent. And that may be throwing either time or relationship equity or money at this might be better. A time meeting people is what I mean. Or even going to in-person events where all the creators hang out might be better use of a founder’s time potentially than them building their own audience from scratch. And I do think that’s something people should think about.  

Jay Clouse:
I follow a guy, his name is Orin John. His handle is usually Orin meets world, and he mostly works with D two C brands, and when he talks about founder led marketing, he actually more speaks about it kind of being like founder involved marketing, where you don’t have to be the face in every video your company is producing, but if you show up a couple of times over the month, whatever your content calendar is, that can be good, but you can hire someone else in your company to kind of be the face and you can show up from time to time when you do campaigns with other influencers, maybe you show up in that campaign, and that’s a way for you to gauge how receptive their audience is to you specifically, and if there’s opportunity for you to just create more of your own content if you show up in that way. 

I think trying stuff like that gives you more data, and I think there’s just a lot of benefit to experimenting in this way and seeing how do I feel about it? Not only how did this go, but did I enjoy it? Do I want to do more of it? Did that feel like a drag? If I see a session on my calendar for this coming up, am I dreading it or am I looking forward to it? That’s the type of thing that really you just need to get some lived experience to say, do I want to do more of this, and is it worthwhile?  

Rob Walling :
Yeah, no, I think that’s good advice to close on, if folks want to keep up with you, you are Jay Klaus on X Twitter, J-A-Y-C-L-O-U-S-E, and of course creator science.com.  

Jay Clouse:
That’s right. That’s right.  

Rob Walling :
Thanks so much for joining me on the show today. Thanks again to Jay for taking the time to come on the show. And as a reminder, this is a two-part conversation and you should head to any podcast catcher of your choice and look for the Creator Science Podcast for the part where Jay interviews me about stuff that I’m passionate about. Thanks so much for listening this week and every week. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 821.