Episode 811 | When to Delegate the “Core Four SaaS Skills,” Freemium Retention Rates, and More Listener Questions (A Rob Solo Adventure)

Rob Walling:
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Welcome back to another episode of Startups For the Rest Of Us, I’m your host for Rob Walling and in this episode I’m going to answer several listener questions and I’m going to pull in one of my remote correspondence to help out with one of the first questions. Before we dive into that, I want to let you know about the best online community for SaaS founders. It’s called MicroConf Connect. You can go to MicroConf connect.com. We charge $50 a month and that keeps the quality of the conversation and the folks who are in the community very high. We also have an application process and we do in fact reject. It’s not just a fake one where we let a hundred percent of the people in, we reject applicants who we don’t think are going to bring value to the community, who are going to come in and sell or who frankly don’t qualify and aren’t going to improve the quality of the conversation. MicroConf Connect has been around for five years now and there are hundreds and hundreds of founders in there discussing things like, give me feedback on my landing page, or How do I validate this? Or I’m doing 1.5 million a RR, how should I be thinking about delegating certain tasks? If you’ve only been part of free online communities that are very high noise to signal and often have low quality conversations, you should check out MicroConf connect.com. And with that, let’s dive into my first listener question.  

Speaker 2:
Hi Rob. This is ZA from France. In the SaaS playbook you gave key values for a churn rate and saying for example, that a churn rate above 10% is catastrophic and a churn rate under 2% is great. As I am launching my hub, I try to analyze more of a retention rate than the churn rate. And my question is, do you also have key values of range for retention rate that can say if it’s good or not good? I mean, I can see the number of people who install the app and keep the app, and I wish to know which is a good percentage of people that keep the app compared to the one, but just install the app and live straight away and just to specify this kind of free offer where customer can try the app based on the value metrics. So this is why I ask this question. Thanks a  

Rob Walling:
Lot. This is a great question. Thank you for asking it. And to help me answer this question, I’m going to call in the startups For the Rest Of Us remote freemium correspondent, one of the foremost experts in the world on freemium that I turn to when I have a question like this. Ruben Gomez.  

Ruben Gamez :
Thanks Rob. Freemium retention. So this is an interesting topic. It’s also really hard to find good numbers in the way that you would find for churn or trial conversion rates. I’ve worked on this myself over the years for my SaaS Sewell. I’ve also talked to founder friends, I’ve done a bunch of research on this and the numbers are kind of all over the place. And then founders just often don’t really know what their activation rate is and especially what their retention rate is on free plans, free users. So all that said for SaaS, usually going to want to keep it above 20% if it starts to go into 15%. If I have a SaaS and it has a 5% free user retention rate, then I’m definitely jumping on that and there’s something going on. The free plan isn’t working or we’re targeting the wrong free users or something. 

Now that’s very different than retention rate on mobile free users. And I mentioned mobile because you said the word install, which made me curious and I looked into the app that you have and it does seem to be mobile consumer. So the retention rate on mobile users is actually way lower. Think something like three to 5%. But I was talking to a friend just recently and asked him about his retention rate on, he has mobile app, he has millions of users, and his retention rate was somewhere around 1%, which seems like really low. But this is another thing when it comes to retention rate on free users is that the more volume you’re working with, the harder it is for your retention rate to be high just because your funnel is so wide and probably your top of funnel is so wide and you’re just getting so many users and the targeting tends to be a little bit off. 

And if you get very few free users, they’re often pretty targeted and maybe they’re more highly motivated and you’re probably going to have a higher retention rate. It doesn’t mean that you can’t improve your retention rate, it’s just what you tend to see depending on the type of volume that you’re working with. The more important thing to know, and the thing that I would really focus on is that your retention curve, this is like if you’re looking at a chart and you have a hundred percent at the top and 0% bottom, this is the percentage of users that you keep and you measure this over time, over a week or over several weeks or months or whatever, and you have this line that sort of starts at a hundred percent and as it moves to the right, it drops. And what you want to avoid is for this line to get down to zero, you want it to flatten out at some point eventually just kind of stay steady and that’s the most important thing. 

If it doesn’t stay steady and it’s just dropping to zero, then you have a problem. So it’s almost like retention rate is so different depending on the type of app that you have and whether it’s something that’s supposed to be used daily or if it’s consumer, if it’s a habit sort of thing, that it’s more important to look at that pattern and whether it flattens out or not. The reason why flattening it out is important is because then you can over time as you get new cohorts in, you layer that in. Sure you have like 15%, 20% of your free users stick around after day 30, but then there’s another 20% after day 30 and for each cohort and that kind of builds over time. So if you don’t have that and it eventually always goes to zero, you’re kind of just starting over each month each week or whatever each day. So those are the main things that I’d look out for if I’m trying to improve my free users’ retention rate. I think that’s it. Over to you Rob.  

Rob Walling:
Thanks for that, Ruben. This question actually got me thinking that next time Ruben comes on the podcast, I think I’d like to dig into freemium a bit more, maybe not for the whole episode, but to have a topic where we don’t just talk about retention rates, but there are things that Ruben will say when we get in conversations about freemium that I just wasn’t aware of because the last free plan I had, well, I guess we had one at Drip after we were acquired, and then I had one with hit tail as well. So I have had freemium plans, but I never dove into it the way that Reuben has. And I’d like to not only talk about retention rates, but if you have a free plan, what’s the range of conversion to paid that you should be looking for? Because Reuben said something that surprised me. 

I dunno, it was a year or two ago. He and I were just BSing at some point and someone had, I believe a 7% freemium to paid conversion rate within X months. And Ruben made the comment, and I hope I’m not misquoting him, but he made the comment, oh, that’s too high. And I was like, what do you mean too? How can it be too high? Right? That’s like saying my trial to paid conversion rate is too high and it’s like, don’t you want that to be as high as possible? And he had just an amazing take on why he had concerns about the structure of that free plan. And so I think next time Ruben comes on, I’ll make a note to have a conversation around that. So thanks for that question Xavier, and thanks for answering that with all the detail that you lend Ruben. My next question comes from longtime listener, longtime MicroConf attendee and speaker Ted Pitts, the co-founder of More Aware Software. Fun fact, Ted and his co-founder Harry attended the very first MicroConf in 2011 as well as several subsequent MicroConf, but they run more aware software, which is a very successful SaaS for countertop installers. And Ted has a question about delegating the core four SaaS skills.  

Speaker 4:
Hey Rob, this is Ted. I enjoyed your comments in episode 8 0 7 about the core four SaaS skills. I agree with what you said for early stage companies about founders needing to own those roles. I don’t think founders have to start out good at every one of the core four as long as they take ownership of it and commit the time to getting good. That’s a little different than saying you have to already be an expert in all four of those areas to succeed. So I’d be interested to hear your experience with how this concept evolves as the company grows because if you want to be an owner of your business without also being an employee or if you want to sell to someone who doesn’t want to buy a job, you may want to delegate these at some point. I mean, it’s normal to have other employees help execute on these four functions, but I’ve found that it’s challenging and high consequence to delegate full ownership of these functions to non founder employees. Can you talk more about how you have seen founders successfully delegate the core four as they grow  

Rob Walling:
Grow? Honestly, Ted, this is a really good question and I’m glad you asked it because it instantly got me thinking. I have seen this done many, many times and I love the thought process of A how do you do it so you’re not just doing all these things forever and B, how do you do it well, when do you do it? How do you not abdicate it? How can you delegate not abdicate probably? How do you hire for this? So there’s a lot here and just as a refresher for folks who didn’t listen to my episode when, I guess it was about three, four episodes ago where I talked about the core four SA skills and what I said is I get these questions of, Hey, I’m trying to find a co-founder, do I need a co-founder? And what I’ve finally kind of landed on as my stance is there are four skills that I think are absolutely critical to have operating at an owner level or a founder level. 

And so usually if you’re bootstrapped, that means that the founders, founder or founders between them have to own these skills in the early days, and I talk about it for like 15, 20 minutes on that episode. You can hear all the nuance there. But the core four are sales or marketing, depending on if you’re high or low touch product and development. The easiest one to delegate of course is development, especially if you are a technical founder. But again, I already went through this for 20 minutes so I won’t dive in here. The question that Ted has asked is when do you delegate these? And I guess I’ll start with I think at different stages. The way I’ve seen it done well, and this is across my investments, this is the TinySeed companies as well as my independent investments. I think I need to rerun the number, but I think it’s 234, maybe 2 35 SaaS B2B SaaS companies that I have insight into as well as of course thousands across MicroConf and startups For the Rest Of Us where I have a little less exposure, but I have a lot more data across the state of independent SaaS and such, development is the easiest slash one that I would consider the earliest because it is so time intensive and especially if you already have that skillset on your founding team, I’m going to say it’s not that hard. 

It’s not that hard to find a really good developer that can help you. It’s not easy, but it’s not that hard compared to finding a product person that’s going to come in and understand your product and make decisions of what to build and how to build it. So I’ve seen great developers bring on help at 10 KMRR, right? And in fact, with Drip as an example, I think I had two devs, I had Derek Rimer, and then we had a junior dev by the time we were at maybe 10 or 15 KMRR. But keep in mind that was a market that really needed a lot of features. If you’re going to build an ESP or marketing automation, you need a couple years of person hours into development just to build the feature set to be table stakes in that realm. So if you’re in a tighter vertical where there isn’t that much competition, maybe you hire a dev at 10, 20 30 KMRR, and that will be a huge weight off your shoulders now delegating the technical direction of the company, all the tech leadership and the architectural decisions, that’s the kind of stuff that I would keep on the founding team until much later, and I’ll get into that in a couple minutes. 

Sales, in terms of sales demos and closing sales, I’ve seen folks, founders get a repeatable sales process by the time they’re doing. I’ve seen some 2030 KMRR and if it really is repeatable, I mean I handed off sales. We were at about that 2025 KMRR because I had done enough sales calls and they were very similar to each other that I was able to hire Anna who did customer success and sales for us. But then I’ve also seen folks, if the sales process is more of an enterprise procurement situation, I’ve seen folks wait until they’re at a million a RR or even beyond that, I hear some sales coaches who are more in the VC backed space saying founders should definitely do it until one or 2 million, and that’s good guidance, but I think that you can do it earlier than that if your sales process is not super complicated, especially if it’s like a one or a two call close and you find there’s a lot of repeatability. 

If you have a dual funnel and you’re doing sales at the low end, let’s say 500 a month, and then you have 5,000 a month as a founder, I’d probably retain the 5,000 a month sales calls. So you get the idea there for marketing is a tough one because marketing is 20 different things, right? It’s being an individual contributor and actually pushing the buttons in a Facebook ads console. That’s something I think you can delegate to contractors or a freelancer or an agency really early on. It’s just a black box. Does it work, does it not? But marketing strategy and marketing project management are two layers above that, right? The strategy is figuring out what we’re going to test, how we’re going to test it, monitoring it, looking at the analytics and project management is just keeping everything going and making sure that if you have contractors or in-house folks, they’re doing the thing and giving them guidance and keeping ’em on task. 

Project management, I think you could delegate relatively early if you had budget. It’s all going to be budget constrained. The marketing strategy is pretty tough. It’s hard to find someone that can take you, especially if you’re at the zero to one level where you’re still trying new marketing approaches. But if you have two that are working or three that are working, that’s the kind of stuff that you can definitely hand on once it’s working. And I don’t think it’s really an MRR goal or an MRR level where you would hand that off, but I think of it more as how repeatable is this process comes back to my certainty versus uncertainty framework of what founders should be working on Once a marketing approach is fairly repeatable, you can hire folks to crank out the SEO articles or create the videos or do what it is that you’ve been doing versus marketing strategy. 

I’ll tell you the earliest, I’ve seen founders like the most successful founders in TinySeed that are doing seven figures and up in a RR the earliest I’ve seen any of them really bring someone in to collaborate on strategy. And I’ll say they didn’t hand it off completely, but it’s probably about certainly above a million A RRI would lean towards 1.5 to maybe 2 million a RR. And this depends on a lot of things, but I am giving you loose ranges. It’s further along than most founders want, right? A lot of developer founders want to be like, how can I just outsource sales and marketing? And they’re doing five KA month and it’s like I’ve never seen a founder outsource marketing strategy and doing sales calls, sales demos and closing sales that early and have success with it Doesn’t mean you can’t bring people in to help you with it, but the founder has to drive it. 

That’s what I mean when I talk about the core four is even if you hire help, you really need to own most of these things to above, I’d say about a million product is the other one. I think you’re probably, it’s definitely one to 2 million is the earliest I would consider bringing someone else in to start making product decisions. What you build in what order, getting customer feedback, understanding your space, deciding how things are built, really having product management or product ownership on your team is probably going to be at a minimum to, man, that might even be two or 3 million. I can’t think of any TinySeed companies that have brought in outside help for 3 million on the product front. And so I’ve talked a lot about when you should consider delegating some of the core four, and I do think it’s a good idea by the time you hit a million or 2 million that you really start delegating these things. 

But hopefully what you’ve come away with is that you don’t necessarily need to hand off all of marketing. You can hand off pieces of it, hire a project manager if you have budget, hire individual contributors, whether the W2 freelance, it doesn’t really matter who are pushing the actual buttons on the marketing channels. And then maybe hire someone to at first collaborate with you on marketing strategy and hire someone to come in and shadow you for sales and eventually hand off the lower end deals. And then maybe if they’re doing great, then they work their way up to the more expensive deals. And similarly with product Man that, I mean Derek and I made every single product decision on Drip until we were doing, I would think we were doing at least five, 6 million at the time it was post-acquisition. And we brought in a product person whom you’ve heard on this podcast, his name is Brendan Fortune, and he came on here to talk about product management. 

And that was a tough hire. And in fact, hiring a product person is very, a really good one, is very expensive. And at least the way we architected it, it was very much a collaborative process where the three of us then made all the product decisions. And then as Derek and I transitioned out of the company, then Brendan really took over the leadership of that. So how would I think about doing this? Well, certainly if I had the core four on my founding team, let’s say it’s two founders and we split these two things, I would absolutely be thinking about delegating slash hiring some senior engineers to start taking over even to the point of architectural decisions as I’m doing single digit millions. And to me it’s always a collaboration. It’s like if I spend two hours a week, three hours a week talking to my senior dev lead who’s running the whole thing, you can have a lot of impact in those couple of hours where you’re almost an advisor or a consultant to that team and you bring someone on over time. 

I mean, I can’t imagine just bringing someone in, being great here. You make all the decisions. Now, it would have to be a really slow burn for me to feel comfortable with it on any of these fronts. But the thing to keep in mind I think is hire someone who they need the experience. They need to have been a senior at all four, not all four of these things, but at any individual thing that you hire them for. So whether that’s marketing strategy or sales or development or product, you take your best shot and you hire someone senior, you bring ’em in and you collaborate for a while and then you slowly draw down your time moving from being the operator, making the decisions day to day, to slowly stepping back to like, I’m going to let you take that piece over customer interviews that I used to do. 

I want you to do this now and just report back to me. And then there’s a little bit of coaching that happens there. And then I used to create the kind of backlog all the features that we could feasibly build and why don’t you start doing that and I’m just going to monitor. And then you slowly, as it’s done well, you slowly just let go a piece at a time. So at least the way I view it is probably more like a bootstrapper does where everything’s a slow move. It’s slower than if it is like we raised $10 million, I’m going to hire all these people all at once and you need to go to headcount of 50 within a year, or your venture capitalists are busting your chops. It’s a very different game. And I’ve seen that done well and I’ve seen it done poorly mostly I’ve seen it done poorly just moving so quickly. 

But for me it is a slow process and it gives you time to kind of suss out, oh, where are this person’s strengths and weaknesses? Where do I need to either hire an additional person to give them help if they have a blind spot or a weakness in an area, or where do I need to still stay involved? And then one of the ultimate delegation moves that I’ve seen is folks running a SaaS company doing several million and hiring a COO to take over management of those areas and even moving them to CEO to where you really are just working on your areas of expertise, your zone of genius. Because as founders, we are Jacks or Jills of all trades, but usually there’s one or two that we’re really good at. And sticking in that zone of genius and not having to spend so much time working on the others I think is probably a long-term goal, especially if you’re going to make it a sustainable company that you want to run for years or decades or even if you want to sell it so you’re not so tied to the day-to-day operations. 

So that was an excellent question, Ted. Thank you for sending it in. And if you or anyone else feels like I missed any aspects of it or there’s more to discuss, please send in a follow-up question and I will either talk more about it or have a guest on to bat it back and forth with me. I think given that this whole idea of the Core four is like a month old, it just kind of hit me one day while I was recording an episode. I think there’s more to discuss here and more to be thinking about. So really appreciate the question. Hope that was helpful. My next question is from Twitter and its Val Soapy, longtime listener of the pod as well as many time MicroConf attendee and Val asks, I’m always wondering if a great founder with all the Core four sales, marketing, product and dev can succeed with any product or the product first and foremost must have legs. 

Where’s the cutoff? This is a fun thought experiment. I think. Here’s my opinion, there are founders out there. I often, they’ll either come on the show or I will mention them as just being someone who’s going to kind of succeed at anything. And I think for those founders, even if they have, let’s say it’s a bad market or a bad product idea that they launch into, they pivot and they figure it out. And I’ve seen founders, this is the Ruben Gomez’s and on a bigger stage with Jason Cohen and Heat and Shaw, and we look at HubSpot and how they pivoted in the early days. There’s just folks who I do think if they have those Core four, they will figure it out. It doesn’t necessarily mean inevitably, doesn’t mean they’re right the first time, but it means that they will keep grinding and look at that product sense and get that sense of the customers and kind of look for market poll into an entirely different vertical or an entirely different space and they just figure it out. 

I feel like there’s always a little bit of luck involved in hindsight, but I’ll see the same founders having success after success after success, and eventually I’m like, they’re just going to kind of figure it out with whatever they’re doing. David cancels another example. I believe he’s sold five startups. They’re all successful. I could go on a laundry list of folks who could just kind of do it. But with that said, I think your market and your product are a multiplier on your strength. As a founder, and I can’t remember where I talked about this, I don’t think it’s in a book. It might be in the SaaS launchpad course at SaaS launchpad.co or maybe a YouTube video. I’m going to need to look back. But I talk about how the founder skillset and ability to execute is a multiplier on the idea and the market. 

And I’m trying to think if I had two or three things multiplied together, was it like founder times product times market? Maybe it wasn’t just founder times market because I can go into a market and build a product no one needs, so it has to be, I almost think it’s these three things multiplied together. It’s the founder times how you’re solving the problem itself, like the product times the market itself, like how hungry it is, how willing it is to spend money. We can go back to the 5:00 PM framework and look at those categories. So let’s say we have founder times product, times market, and each is on a one to 10 scale. Just to keep things simple. If the founder is world-class, the product idea is amazing and the market is super hungry and growing. You might think of this as a WP Engine type situation where you have Jason Cohen launching into a growing market at the right time, and his product idea, it was very, very smart. 

Maybe that’s a 10 times 10 times 10. So you have, what is that, a thousand? Yeah, a thousand. I don’t think any idea product or market is a 10 out of 10. So maybe it’s nine or nine plus times nine times nine, but let’s say you have a really small market that’s not growing very quickly and people’s willingness to pay is pretty low. Maybe that’s a one or a two. And if the founder’s really good, let’s say they’re an eight or a nine and the product is really good, it’s a seven. You can imagine. I mean this is all kind of made up, but you get the ideas that it’s multiplicative. That’s how I think about this. And so we could go down to gruesome detail and be like, well, your particular product knowledge, you’re like an eight out of 10 or your product abilities, and as a dev you’re like a six out of 10. 

I think we’re going down such a theoretical rabbit hole. I would just say the founder, I would rate myself as, I don’t know, among all founders, maybe I’m a seven out of 10 or an eight out of 10. And then this product and this idea, these are all kind of made up numbers, but you get the idea, it’s directionally correct. I like the idea of a multiplier. You don’t just want to add them together. It can actually 10 times 10 versus 10 plus 10. It’s a logarithmic scale. I do think the best markets like the nine or the 10 out of 10 markets are significantly easier slash better to enter into than ones that are not. And for the astute listeners who have listened to this show for a while, you’re probably thinking to yourself, well, what about hard work, luck and skill? And I do think that the founder themselves, if you’re going to rate yourself I a one to 10 hard work and skill, go into that. 

How hard do you work? What are your skills in the areas you need to be a founder? I think that all just gets lumped in your one to 10, but luck is not covered anywhere. When I say, Hey, it’s founder times product times market. So maybe there’s a fourth of yeah, if you got really lucky, it could bump it up. I don’t know that that’s particularly helpful because I think some people attach to luck as an excuse so they don’t feel bad if they fail. But we could add that as a fourth as well. So those are my off the cuff thoughts. Val, I really appreciate that question. I hope it was helpful. My next question, I’m going to leave as anonymous. I believe they gave me permission to mention unstar For the Rest Of Us, but I think it’s just easier if I leave them as anonymous. 

They basically wrote in and said they’re using off the shelf software, and I don’t know if it’s an open source package or if it’s a commercial package, but that’s the underlying software that they have adapted for their SaaS. And I think they do not have development experience on their founding team. So they are missing one of the core four. And the problem is, is they’re hitting roadblocks in terms of being able to adapt to the market. And so they’re going to need to completely rewrite their tech. And there were a couple of things around this. One was a question around whether a TinySeed would fund a company like theirs. And the other one was a question that I think I came up with myself, which was more like, is this a good path? Is this a viable path or should founders avoid this? So to answer the first question around whether TinySeed would fund a company like this, I lump companies together where either the underlying tech has been vibe coded or it is a platform that the founders don’t control, like in this case or if it’s no code, all three of those are cases. 

And there are probably others where I know that the code-based is going to need to be rewritten fairly early on, completely from scratch. And maybe that’s at 10 KMRR, maybe it’s at 20. I do not think you can get to a million in RR in any repeatable fashion. There’s probably one example that someone can bring up. But as a rule, I think this experience is going to be a very common one. TinySeed has funded a couple no code, code bases, and I don’t honestly know the exact number. It might be two and it may be a size four. I don’t think we’ve funded a vibe, coded code base. We are now asking that in interviews because I want to know if you’re going to need to stand still for six months and rewrite this code base before you can really scale and get to seven or eight figures in a RR. 

So the answer is would we might, but it is not a hard no, but it’s a factor that counts against you because to me it’s a factor that counts against your possibility of success. It’s going to be a drag on your momentum. And I have a tough time imagining all of the most, the TinySeed money being invested into a business that then has to stand still for 3, 5, 6 months to recode an entire code base. So the answer is it depends because let’s say it’s not a huge code base and you could code the entire thing in a month or two. Great. And as I said, we have funded a few of these, but it has inevitably been a big pain for them and it has been a bit of standing still hard to keep up with the market. And so it is not a hard no, but it is a factor against them. 

And if you think about it, that may be the answer to the second one as well. Is it a, you should never do any of these things? I don’t think so, but I wouldn’t do them if I could avoid it if there was any way around using no code. And again, this is, I’m not saying for 5,000 or a $10,000 lifestyle business, if you’re an indie hacker and you want to quit your day job, that’s great. You can do whatever you want, scrap get by, and I’ve done that. I’ve had crappy code bases that just kind of limped along, right? That’s okay. But if you want to become a seven or eight figure a RR SaaS company, I would try to avoid this if at all possible, and I would want to take more time upfront to be in control of the code and not have the platform risk and have the ability to be agile with a lowercase a. 

Now, with all that said, one could make the argument well, but what if you have to spend three to six months coding? Isn’t that a lot of risk upfront? You could validate the market with no code or with a vibe coded thing or with a third party platform as this founder has done. And the answer is, yeah, but then what happens when you validate that market and you have some folks paying you and you get to 2, 3, 5 KA month? The question is, are you going to then stand still for six months while you’re rebuilt the tech? And for me, for my money as a founder, that’s not something that I would enjoy doing. That would be very painful. I mean, I remember in the early days of direct even having to stand still for a month while we migrated to, I don’t know, a new database provider and had to rewrite some things to be more performant and that was agonizing. 

So I can’t imagine not being able to serve our customers in the way that I want to and not being able to respond to the needs of the market in the early days of your app, which is exactly when you need to be doing those things. That’s one of your advantages over big competitors, over entrenched incumbents is that you have the ability to ship so fast and your feature velocity can be super high. You don’t have a bunch of tech debt, and that is one of your competitive advantages as a small bootstrapped or mostly bootstrapped startup. And I have a really hard time imagining giving up that flexibility, especially in the early days. Those are all the questions I have time for today. If you have a question for the show, feel free to email it to Questions at Startups For the Rest Of Us dot com or head to the website, click ask a question in the top nav that’s startups For the Rest Of Us dot com. And you can send an audio or video question to go to the top of the stack, or a more advanced question also goes to the top of the stack. But all questions are welcome and it looks like I only have about 20 questions in the backlog right now, so can definitely use more. Thank you for joining me this week and every week. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 811.