In today’s episode, Rob and Mike Taber review and rank their past yearly predictions and then make big, bold projections for 2021 with bets ranging from extraterrestrial life, VR becoming mainstream, the end of commercial real estate, and more.
The topics we cover
[2:45] Reviewing our predictions for 2019
[7:42] Predictions for 2021
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Obviously, this episode will feel a little different. It is live, and sometimes I believe my AirPods connected and then disconnected so I was on my non-podcast recording mic on and on. I hope you enjoy this episode today where Mike and I ran through our 2021 predictions.
Mike, in the original draft of Star Wars: A New Hope. What was Luke Skywalker’s last name?
Rob: Nailed it. In this episode Startups For the Rest of Us, Mike and I talk about our predictions for 2021. This is Startups For the Rest of Us Episode 528.
Rob: Welcome to Startups For the Rest of Us, the podcast of developers, designers, and entrepreneurs be awesome at building launching, and growing startups, whether you’ve built your fifth startup, or are thinking about your first.
Mike: And I’m Mike.
Rob: And we’re here to share our experiences to help you avoid the mistakes we’ve made. What is the word this week, sir?
Mike: I have some big news to share. I am officially moving to Canada.
Rob: Are you really?
Mike: No. April Fools’ Day? It’s like March 3790th, but April 1st is going to be right around the corner. I figured I’d spring one on you.
Rob: Oh my gosh. I thought you were serious. I was like, congratulations, sir. All right. What’s going on now? What’s the word this week?
Mike: Not much. I’m just trying to wrap up the end of the year and get things all straightened out for next year. Mostly a lot of paperwork at this point and getting things together to have ready to send off for tax season. It’s just wrapping up last-minute implementations, and sales, and stuff like that.
Rob: Are you going to get a tax refund or are you going to pay?
Mike: I have no idea. I don’t usually find out until March, April timeframe, something like that. I have no idea.
Rob: Cool man. Let’s dive into reviewing our predictions that we made in December of 2018 for 2019. We never did make 2020 predictions, but these are basically for two years ago. You want to run through your head. We each had four predictions, and you can run through yours, and give yourself a rating of 1-5 on the accuracy, five being most accurate, and then I’ll do the same.
Mike: Sure. The first one was that a global downturn would be in full swing and I was off by one year on this. I don’t feel like I was. I don’t feel like I should get credit for it, but at the same time, it was only off by a year. It does feel 2020 is a global downturn. I’d probably only give myself maybe 2 ½ on this one. I’d probably lean towards a lower score, maybe 1 ½ or two instead, just because I was off by the year, but it’s not to say it didn’t come true.
The second one was esports leagues getting a TV channel aside from Twitch. You’d told me that apparently, that already existed so, five.
Rob: You have predicted something that had already happened.
Mike: Yes. It’s like a reverse Nostradamus. My third prediction was something bad would happen with Tesla, SpaceX, or Elon Musk. I have to say, in retrospect, looking back that there were some tweets that his behavior got more and more outrageous. Then he was essentially forced to step down as the chairman of the board by the SEC, and they fined him $20 million or something like that.
Rob: But that happened in September of 2018. We recorded this in December. This was months later. You were predicting something even more.
Mike: Oh, I don’t think that happened until the spring though. It was February of 2019.
Rob: Elon Musk stepped down as CEO and stepped down as chairman and this is September 19th, 2018 in nytimes.com, three months prior. You were predicting something more would happen. I vaguely recall.
Mike: I thought there was some other stuff that came out afterward, in the spring of the following year, where they came out, and fined him, and did a bunch of other stuff, but I could be wrong on that so that’s one.
Rob: I don’t remember him getting fined after that. Aren’t the stock prices all up? I don’t know, man. I would think this is a mess as well. I just don’t know if anything could happen.
Mike: The article I was looking at said that he had tweeted something out, it was a picture and it said, “4000 Tesla cars loading for an SF in Europe.” He tweeted out on February 19th, 2019. After that his general council resigned and then all this other stuff. There was a bunch of stuff that happened afterward. I give myself a three on that one.
The last one was Amazon will overtake Apple in terms of market cap. I was pretty far off on that one. And that would be a one, maybe a zero. It was within the realm of possibility, but certainly, I don’t think that it happened.
Rob: All right. Let’s see if we can get through my four predictions here that I made again, back in December of 2018 for 2019. The first was that cryptocurrencies would have ups and downs, but there would be no major boom in 2019. That was still bullish long-term. Now, we’re having a big boom in 2020. I would give myself a four on that because there was no boom in 2019, and there is a boom right now. The bullish long-term thing remains to be seen, but I’ll give myself a three or four. I predicted 2019 would be the year of AR, augmented reality, and I would give myself a one or whatever the lowest score is on that. I remember being like no air is going to take off, and there’ll be a headset, and we’ll be doing it.
Like every prediction with technology, it’s probably five years early. There would be a Facebook antitrust suit brought against them. An antitrust suit brought against Facebook. I predicted that for 2019, and there would be a rise of a new social network as a result because they would either get broken up or get handicapped by it. For 2019, I get a zero but for 2020, that just happened two weeks ago for those watching in the future—Facebook antitrust suit. It’s funny how the timing works out. And then I made a bold prediction that Twitter would be acquired, which it did not happen so that is an absolute fail.
You and I have never really had good track records with these. It’s kind of tough, especially the bolder. You want to make it bold so that they’re fun to talk about. The bolder they are, the less likely they’re to happen in the next 12 months. A lot of our predictions, I bet if we went back, a lot of them happened eventually.
Mike: Sure. I don’t think people are going to be predicting things that are just not even within the realm of possibility, but eventually at some point, sure, they could all happen.
Ben: Cool. With that, sir, let’s dive in. Let’s see, we each have five predictions for 2021 and why don’t you kick us off with yours?
Mike: My first prediction is based loosely on current events, but I believe that commercial office space real estate will never recover. That’s going to be a function of these large businesses that have sent everybody home for long stretches of time. Whether initially, they thought it was only going to be a couple of weeks, and then they realized it was several months, and now it’s stretched out in some cases to six months, a year, or two years at this point. They’ve realized that they don’t need those big office spaces. They have these big buildings and places, whether they’ve either purchased it or rented it, and they’d come to find out and realize, hey, we can make this work and we don’t need these spaces. We can have all our workers at home and we can cut a lot of expenses by doing so. In some cases, they’re cutting millions of dollars by being able to do that and they’re making it work. Knowing that they’re able to survive without this office environment, is going to encourage them to continue down that path, and they’re just not going to come back. There are certainly some who are going to, but for the most part, that stuff’s gone away, there’s still going to be a lot of services—real estate for salons, phone repair, and retail, and things like that—but the actual office space stuff, that’s gone. I don’t think it will ever come back.
Rob: Bold prediction, sir. What’s funny is, as you talk and say these companies have realized they don’t need the office space, they can be remote, does it feel to you finally like catching up. What was the bootstrap, the MicroConf community has been doing for a decade? Because we didn’t have the money to hire talent. You couldn’t afford to hire talent in a major city so we always hired remote. It’s like, oh, you’re getting here too now.
Mike: I feel it’s hearkening back to my consulting days where I would go into a company and they’d say, oh, this can’t be done or we can’t do it this way. And I asked the questions, why not? But because I’m an outside person, in some cases, they would just obliterate it as no, that’s completely a non-starter, even though I’ve made it work at other companies. There are other cases where they’re like, oh, that’s a great idea. Why didn’t we think of it? It’s just like, it wasn’t you didn’t think of it or nobody’s talked to you about it. You just didn’t believe it until you actually saw it. That’s more of it than anything else.
Rob: I agree with that. My first prediction is that privacy concerns will continue to transform email marketing back to what it used to be, which was basically, spray-and-pray. Obviously, over the past 15, 20 years, if you think way back to early days of constant contact around 2000, you get some open rates and some click-through rates, but a lot of people didn’t pay attention to them and you just had this list that you sent a broadcast to, and you didn’t do any type of tagging or behavioral based email.
You didn’t write anything specific for different segment, and then over the next 10, 12 years, that became a thing. Marketing automation and the tagging, and everything became a thing as Infusionsoft, Marketo, Pardot, Drip, and then Mailchimp added them in a Weber added out of that type of stuff. But the privacy concerns with tracking pixels in essence, inside emails is becoming more and more of an issue.
This year with hey.com with the Basecamp guys putting out Hey and saying, we’re going to block all tracking pixels. I believe they’re going to shame people in the app who sends tracking pixels. There’s kind of becoming this backlash about it. While certainly I don’t think every email client will do that instantly—much like Not Provided started happening in Google, and much like SSL everywhere became a thing—there’s a movement towards essentially blocking a lot of the good metrics that an email service provider can get from email broadcasts or an email automation. Once you lose a lot of that stuff, you will start to lose the helpfulness of the tagging. It’s not that you can’t have any automations, but it’s going to set email marketing back in five or 10 years.
Mike: My second prediction is related to government regulations on big tech. There’s a couple of different things that will fall under this umbrella for my prediction. This is almost a two-parter and the first one is going to be an over attempt by the government. I’m going to lump a couple of them together like in the United States federal government, the European Union, or maybe even as I doubt a state government would have the ability to do this, but they’re going to attempt to break up at least one of the big tech companies and my money on that would be on Facebook. But Amazon, Apple, and Google are all there on the cross areas, but Facebook is probably the one that would end up being targeted if any of them won.
My second prediction under regulations is that governments are going to actively crack down on the gig economy. Essentially, people who are doing side jobs or they’re stringing together multiple side jobs in order to either make a living or make extra money on the side, those types of people, the government’s going to look at those and say, not only are they very high at risk for getting COVID or other things, but the problem that the government’s going to look at and see is that those people don’t have any healthcare, or health insurance, or have low access to it. They’re not treated well. They’re not paid well and therefore, need to be productive.
The governments are going to crack down on those things and put legislation and regulations in place, and not just talk about it. They’ve talked about it before. They’ve tried to do things like the California state government has tried to do things, but no one’s ever made a concerted effort. And that this year is going to be the year that they do that.
Rob: It’s already happening. I guess there’s a lawsuit against Facebook and Google. Lawsuits from 40 something states and the federal government. Are you piggybacking on that and saying the results of that lawsuit will be that they try to break one of these up.
Mike: Yeah. There’s a difference between suing them and then trying to get them to change their practices. We’re going to go that extra step and they’re going to say, no, what you’ve proposed is not acceptable. We want to break you up. Similar to what they did back with Microsoft, and then Microsoft did all these different things, that never actually came to happen. But they’re going to push for that hard enough that it’s going to get to that point where that’s on the table as a potential resolution, whether it happens or not is a different story but it’s going to get to that point where it is pushed and it is openly on the table and everyone’s talking about it.
Rob: It’s on the table already. The prediction to be bold would be that it will happen. People are already mentioning it. The first news article I read was, “Could they be broken up?” And that’s the first thing that folks are saying. I would also say that Facebook and Google have a suit against them and Apple doesn’t yet. My opinion is Google, Facebook, and Apple are monopolies. Amazon is not a monopoly in anything. Maybe Kindle is the only one I can think of. Can you think of another thing they’re a monopoly in? Because they don’t own enough of the ecommerce market to be a monopoly.
Mike: There are spaces in the ecommerce market where they are doing things that are more monopolistic, such that they own the platform, and they’re allowing people to sell the fulfillment by Amazon. I believe that they’re using some of that data to decide what products that they should offer as white label Amazon products, and they’re using sales data that they shouldn’t. That came out a little bit, it was at least alluded to in some of the congressional testimony this past year, but it was never concretely confirmed one way or the other. There are definitely arguments there.
Rob: I hear that. The white label stuff you’re mentioning is anti-competitive, but I don’t believe it’s monopolistic. To do an antitrust suit and to try to break up a monopoly, you need to find evidence that they are a monopoly. Now, they could be sued, I believe, for anti-competitive practices with the white label stuff, but it’s just such a different game. With Walmart, and Target, and Best Buy, and all these other retailers, Amazon has the majority of the market. They don’t have that 90 something percent penetration that Google does, or Facebook does, or whatever Apple has.
Mike: The monopoly behavior is where they have access and visibility to sales data for their competitors directly in the platform that they’re selling on. That’s where it becomes abusive, a monopoly platform.
Rob: It’s anti-competitive. Monopoly is a very specific definition. It’s where you own almost all the market and no one else can compete. Frankly, Walmart is competing. Shopify stores are competing against Amazon, but anti-competitive is not right what they’re doing, but it’s a different name.
I don’t know that you can bring an antitrust suit against them. It’s just interesting because I’m in the same book boat where Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Google. These are all huge companies, they must be monopolies but I only think three of them are. I don’t think Amazon is, and knowing Bezos, he’s a pretty smart guy to have not done that, that they’ve gotten this big without being a monopoly in any space. They have Amazon AWS and the Google app engine, and Azure are both good solid competitors of that. Again, Kindle is the one I can think of where they just own the vast majority of that market but anyway, a good prediction, sir.
My second prediction is that in 2021, in-person events will happen but adjustments will be put in place, whether it’s social distancing early in the year, or masks being warrants—just all this stuff that we’ve seen around. Then as we get towards the end of the year, less and less of that stuff will be needed.
Mike: Cool. My third prediction is related to healthcare. There’s going to be a major breakthrough in nanotechnology. Obviously, there’s been a lot of advances with the COVID vaccine but this is going to get to the point where it could be something like an implanted chipset that is intended to go mainstream. I don’t believe it would go mainstream next year but I do think that somebody is going to come out with something where the intention is to do that. It might also be something that is much more, I’ll say specialized. It could be an artificial organ, an artificial one that has not been developed yet. Maybe pieces that would augment your liver, or maybe a replacement kidney, something along those lines.
It could also just be something that’s a little bit more simplistic that is for either monitoring or diagnosing ongoing bio functions. It could be used for surgery or for postop care or something along those lines. In those cases, it obviously wouldn’t be mainstream so much as it would be specifically for hospitals or surgery centers where they can just put this in you and implant it and then use it to assist them with whatever it is that they’re doing. People will be terrified by this whole idea because they’ll be like, oh my God, Bill Gates is trying to microchip us.
Rob: Only some people will be terrified by it and there’ll be people who are totally willing to do it. I like that prediction. We got a prediction from the chat, from Ken Wallace, he says, be bold. Predict that 2021 is the year of universal basic income, UBI, Mike. I don’t think it’ll be a thing in the US. I can totally imagine some countries in Europe giving it a try in 2021.
Mike: Yeah, I definitely could as well. It’d be a long time before something like that happens in the US but Europe is definitely a lot more progressive and from that standpoint, I could see them doing them.
Rob: I’m not read up enough on UBI to have too much intelligent thought on it. But my third prediction is that funding in the startup space in general will—and especially in the bootstrapper space—will continue. It’s de-stigmatization as more founder-friendly options continue to show up and continue to expand. It’s interesting. When was it that I predicted it, but it was something about that there would be more bootstrappers raising funding. This was three years ago and it was before I started TinySeed, I’m pretty sure.
I was just seeing that Indie.vc was around and then revenue-based financing started happening with the SaaS capitals and the Ladder capitals. It just made sense that more people who maybe wouldn’t have wanted to go venture track five years ago would potentially want to do the falsity fund strapping route, or just the raise one small round to go to profitability or do revenue-based financing, or just do the non-venture track, any of those options, it’s not binary anymore. I can bootstrap, I can do one round, I can take money from TinySeed, I can take money from Indie.vc, I can do revenue-based financingc—if I get to the point where that makes sense—or I can take venture, this whole buffet of options.
What it feels to me, it hasn’t happened with everyone, but there is a de-stigmatization of funding, whereas funding used to come with a lot of strings attached—loss of control, can’t sell my company, I got kicked out as a CEO, I have to put up with these venture capitalists breathing down my neck, and this board, and blah, blah, blah—and all those things. Poof. If you want to take funding from certain people under certain circumstances, none of that exists anymore. There are different constraints but the optionality that founders have especially bootstrap SaaS founders have these days are tremendous. 2021 basically continues that the stigmatization process.
Mike: I would agree with that. That’s a good prediction. My fourth prediction has to do with movies. Specifically, the Marvel cinematic universe is going to somewhat fall off a cliff. It’ll be subtle at first and then people are just going to be like, yeah, I’m not into this. The reason specifically for that is that they’re getting into the territory of going in and pulling out some of their second-tier characters to draw them to the forefront, which I agree with that as a general strategy and thing that they should do because there are lots of characters that are probably less popular. But because they’re less popular and people haven’t heard of them, there’s going to be a lot less interest in those.
Iron Man is an obvious draw but there’s a lot of these other characters that they’re pulling out like Dr. Strange where some people like, I don’t even really know who that is, I’ve never heard of that person before, even if they’re peripherally involved or knowledgeable about comic books and things like that. I just think that a lot of those characters are not going to be nearly as big a draw and it could result in them scaling back what they’re going to be doing in the future.
I’m a little, I don’t want to say concerned, but I do think that what they’re going to find is that following is ramped-up for the longest time until the last couple of Avengers movies, and then it’s going to fall off a cliff, and they’re not going to quite know what to do with it. They released the new Star Wars solo movie and then it didn’t do as well as they had hoped it would or thought it would, and then they’re going to pull back on the reins.
Rob: That’s a bold prediction and I hope that doesn’t happen—
Mike: I hope it doesn’t either.
Rob: —but it is a prediction. That’s the thing, man. One example is Moon Knight, anyone who didn’t read the comic was like, Moon Knight? Who’s that? But he’s slated for a movie or a show or something coming up. I remember, when they did Iron Man and Captain America, Iron Man always had a comic but he really was not prominent—he was fine—but he was not that prominent the way he is today where it’s like, no, Iron Man is one of the leaders of the Avengers, and even Captain America. I remember I was like, this movie is going to be terrible, and then I saw it and I was like, I cannot believe how good that movie was. I can’t believe that they made such an amazing, compelling story from that character.
I hear you. I appreciate the boldness of your prediction. I hope it doesn’t come true. I know they’re already doing several Marvel TV shows in Essence or streaming shows on Disney+, and that’s basically what Star Wars has gone through. If you heard, they did 10 Star Wars announcements a couple of days ago, or it was last week, I guess, and I believe seven or eight of them are essentially streaming—eight seasons of streaming shows and only two of them are films, which is fascinating.
Mike: It’s fascinating, but also, them hedging their bets and in such a way where they’re not betting everything on this massive movie offering, and they’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and they may ultimately spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a particular storyline, but by doing it through their Disney+ platform. That’s the thing. They’ve got all these different channels and ways to distribute it where they can put it as a TV show—it’s less effort, less money, less production costs, all these other things that go into it—and then they can essentially gauge the margin market but also build interest in that storyline.
When it gets to a certain point and they can say, oh, this justifies having an actual movie, now, we’ve amassed the interest. As opposed to they come out with a new movie for this character nobody’s ever heard of—it’ll be like John Carter. They’re like, oh, wait a second. What? Who’s John Carter? What are you talking about? Unless you’ve ever read those books, you would have no idea and it’s not an interesting story.
Rob: I hear you there, sir. Speaking of that, we’ll get back to startups in a second. Are you watching Amanda Lauren?
Rob: Do you like it?
Mike: Yeah. That’s good so far.
Rob: It’s really good and I’m stoked on it. Alright, my next prediction. My fourth prediction is that VR will become mainstream.
Mike: You just ripped that off from one of the listeners.
Rob: I got an Oculus Quest 2 about three weeks ago and it is a consumer level, it’s about a $300 headset, you don’t need a computer to run it. It just connects to your wifi, and then you get on your mobile phone or your iPad. It is amazing. The kids love it. It $300 and it just works. You just plug it in and it works. I mean, you don’t have to plug it in, it’s completely wireless, and it’s such a leap and a bound from, oh, I need to go out and get a windows PC that’s all beefy.
Frankly, we bought one about a month ago, and within two weeks Cherry’s like, oh, we should have two because you can do a bunch of cooperative games with them and stuff. I can easily see us just picking one up every quarter next year because a lot of the co-op games go up to four people, and I’m not saying Oculus—it’s the only one I’ve owned. I’m not comparing it to other things. I’m just saying if they can build a headset this good for $300 and sell it for $300, where are we headed next? Where is the $199, $99 headset? The experience of it is amazing. It truly is game-changing. Certainly, if you’ve never done VR, it’s a trip, and even if you have done it to sit and be able to play it for 60, 90 minutes and go into the VR world is, it’s like we’ve seen in the movies for 30 or 40 years, but 2021 is the year.
Mike: Tube-related anecdotes ones. I remember seeing a VR headset from 20 years ago. It had this like little hockey puck thing that you had to hold, and you could move your head up, and you can see everything. It was like these little LCD screens in front of you, but this was back—it was literally 1996, something like that. It was ridiculously early, not nearly as good as what they have today.
But the other somewhat related anecdote is when I was a kid, I actually wanted to be a science fiction writer. One of the ideas that I’d come up with for a storyline was in the future, there’s a future where people are not fighting wars anymore. They’re basically fighting with these virtual reality simulators where they’re almost in this giant robot or something like that, and they’re battling each other for control of different territories, but they are augmented in such a way that it becomes real. When you shoot at somebody, it’s not just a laser blast. There are physical sensors and stuff built into the suits stuff that the people had to wear, and you could literally take physical damage from somebody shooting you inside of the “simulation”. Then there are backstories where people do nefarious things and sabotage other people’s suits and stuff like that. I never really fully published anything or came out with it but that was the idea I had a long time ago.
Rob: I like that kind of stuff. Alright. Oh, that was the VR Oculus, so we’re on to your fifth and final prediction for 2021. While we do that, it looks like we have a little more in the chat. Ken Wallace said, my Mandalorian prediction, Grogu goes to the dark side. Oh, is this a spoiler? Grogu goes to the dark side but comes back after destroying the Darksaber. Zander’s note, I still refuse to call him by his name.
We have a prediction, he says, next JS GraphQL and Tailwind CSS will become extremely popular. I think that’s already happened, hasn’t it? They all seem super popular to me. I keep hearing about them, but I guess it depends on what we mean by super popular.
Mike: If they get websites, we know they’re going to hold.
Rob: Right. Cool. Can I have in here your fifth and final?
Mike: Yeah. My fifth and final prediction here is that we will discover definitive proof of extraterrestrial life. I don’t know what exact form that’s going to take, whether it’s going to be Mars or some comet, or an asteroid going by, but that’s the prediction here. There’s a lot of scientific discovery going on right now where people are trying to pull back that information from outer space. They’ve even recently sent a rocket out to an asteroid that was going by planet Earth and brought some of the materials back. It took three or four years or something like that to get it. I don’t know if they’ve analyzed it yet or not but they do have other ongoing things going on. We’re going to get something.
Now, does that mean that we’re going to see proof of little green men? No, that’s not necessarily the case. It could very well just be single-celled things. But the idea there is, it’s not just particles from Earth that ended up in outer space because they were on a rocket or something like that or a spacecraft, and then we find them elsewhere, it’s that they are actually extraterrestrial in origin, so off of anywhere, whether it’s Mars or the moon, something like that,
Rob: That is a bold prediction, sir. I like that.
Mike: I had to go with one that was off the wall. I felt like if you’re going to do predictions, you may as well go all in at some point.
Rob: It’s Babe Ruth colonist shot. My fifth and final prediction is that in terms of the world and COVID, everyone’s predicting, oh, it’s the middle of the year, and then not to the end of the year. I’ve heard people say like, it’s going to be five years until everyone feels back to normal, or the end of 2022 until things are back. We’re going to get back to normal a lot faster than we think, at least within our home countries. I know traveling internationally is going to be different because different countries are handling things. But as vaccines roll out, as we get herd immunity, I think the cases are going to drop faster. I also think people’s comfort level and a lot of people’s desire just to not be cooped up and to go out and go to in-person events or go to movies or go to concerts.
The desire to go to those things is there, and there’s pent-up demand now. The moment—I know several people—the moment they get cleared, when they have that second vaccination, they want to go and do all the things. I’m probably one of them. I’m not an extrovert and yet I want to go work at coffee shops again. Minnesota opened up for a while and we’re back closed again, but we were doing those things, but I still really miss just being able to get out. It’s going to happen fast. I’m an eternal optimist on this front, actually.
Mike: You’re doing a lot of projection there because I’m on the other side of the spectrum, I almost got a t-shirt that literally said when this is over, I still don’t want to see some of you.
Rob: I have that 2020, 0 out of 10, would not recommend a shirt with the zero star.
Mike: I read the 2020 Dumpster Fire t-shirt.
Rob: Yeah. I have a few of them. Well, man, those are our predictions. Can we get to revisit those in just about a year?
Mike: And see if any of us gets above three, four?
Rob: Yeah. If we get more than one, three, that’s probably the goal for next time. The theme music that we couldn’t play today, but it was edited in post, is an excerpt from We’re Outta Control by MoOt, and that’s used under Creative Commons. Obviously, you can search for Startups in any podcatcher and subscribe to us, and always head to startupsfortherestofus.com for a full transcript of each episode. After this is cleaned up, it’s going to be nice and tight. Thank you so much for listening. Mike and I will see you next time.
Mike: Take it easy.