[00:00] Mike: In this episode of Startups for the Rest of Us, Rob and I are going to be talking about our predictions for 2015. This is Startups for the Rest of Us: Episode 215.
[00:15] Welcome to Startups for the Rest of Us, the podcast that helps developers, designers, and entrepreneurs be awesome at launching software products, whether you’ve built your first product or you’re just thinking about it.
[00:22] I’m Mike.
[00:23] Rob: I’m Rob.
[00:24] Mike: And we’re here to share our experiences to help you avoid the same mistakes we’ve made.
[00:27] Rob: So we’re not predicting anything about our businesses. These predictions are like the global kind of broader world of technology and entrepreneurship.
[00:34] So for me this week after about sixty days of my Facebook retargeting ads not showing up because I was in Thailand when they changed the image size you needed, and I couldn’t get new images made in time, after about sixty-something days I finally got those working again this week – or late last week – so they’re really showing up now. It feels good to have that done because I hate it when retargeting’s not running. And while I was at it, since I had a bunch of banners made I’ve started a trickle of Facebook ads again, and I started some YouTube ads, and I figure if I’m going to do some paid acquisition and I’m in the mindset of it in optimization I may as well dive in with both feet.
[01:09] Mike: That would explain all of the ads for Drip that I’m seeing.
[01:11] Rob: Are you seeing a lot?
[01:12] Mike: No. [laughs]
[01:13] Rob: Oh.
[01:14] Mike: I see them here and there. I don’t see a lot though.
[01:17] Rob: You know, retargeting is CPM so it’s per impression whereas if it is an actual Facebook ad, then I do pay-per-click if it’s not retargeted. If you’re seeing them though since you have a Drip account you should not be retargeted. So if you’re seeing them it probably would actually cost me seventy, eighty cents if you clicked it.
[01:35] Mike: So I think I talked a couple of weeks ago about my problems with my bank. I’m actually in the process of switching over to Silicon Valley Bank at this point. So hopefully all my accounting issues are going to go away shortly, and I won’t be overcharged for wire transfers anymore. They make it so difficult to change, and then with all the new laws and stuff you have to prove who you are and actually have you fill out forms and then mail the forms to them if you’re doing an online bank now. It doesn’t matter that it’s all done electronically, they still need some of this paper stuff.
[02:08] Rob: Right. Ah, the Patriot Act.
[02:10] Mike: But aside from that I’ve just been working on mostly AuditShark demos. I spent some time looking at some of the different landing page services because things are a little bit slow now because it’s December so people are kind of busy with holidays and trying to get ready for the new year. So I’m not having as many conversations with people, but I’m starting to look at kind of what my marketing efforts are going to be looking like next year. So I tried LeadPages a while back and it didn’t really work out, so I took another look and started looking at KickoffLabs and Unbounce and LaunchRock, and I think I’m going to go with KickoffLabs for a while and see how that works out.
[02:43] Rob: Very cool. So Kyle Albert tweeted us about a year ago, and I found it in an old outline for a podcast episode as I was searching for something else, and I noticed we never responded to him. So I wanted to respond in this episode. But first a quick service announcement: if you are not connected to @robwalling on Twitter and @SingleFounder on Twitter, you are missing out because it’s like a party up in there every day. So Kyle Albert, as I said, is @kylealbert95, tweeted us a while ago and said, “Have you guys seen this? Would be interested in hearing your take on startups for the rest of us.” The article is called “The Value of Content” and it’s written by Andy Beaumont. And in essence, he started a website called TC;DR, it’s “Tab Closed; Didn’t Read,” and he stated that his preference when he goes to websites is that they don’t popup a big lightbox, right? they don’t ask him for email, they don’t popup an ad, they don’t block the content. The whole post talks about how that’s a negative user experience, and he himself just closes a website instantly if they do that out of principle. And there was a whole discussion of it, and actually Ramit Sethi weighed in on Twitter, and he said, “100% of the people who are cheering this site have never run a website & seen the analytics behind lightboxes” so he obviously comes out on the side of lightboxes.
[03:59] Obviously emotion can run wild on this because you can get on both sides of this argument and kind of make this a religious debate. My take is that it is a personal preference like anything else in selling. You can be a used car salesman or you can be someone who doesn’t sell at all. And these are the kind of opposite ends of the spectrum or you can be somewhere in the middle, and everyone has their comfort zone. And so if your comfort zone is that whenever you see a lightbox it infuriates you then that’s fine. Express your- that’s your right, right? You’re expressing your freedom of being able to close that browser tab, and that’s okay.
[04:33] What’s interesting- but I wouldn’t take that as something- as a reason to never have a lightbox on your site. Personally, I have not used lightboxes because I don’t enjoy them. I don’t think they’re the optimal user experience. However, they are the optimal way to collect emails. You will get more emails. Now then there’s debate about if the people who put emails in are as valuable as the ones who actually seek out the form, and that’s a whole other discussion. But that’s my opinion on it: is that the numbers play out that lightboxes, or something that blocks the screen, is better in terms of ads, in terms of collecting emails, but keep in mind that, you know I have this rule that I will never write copy- I will never write sales copy that I wouldn’t say to someone at a dinner party or at a MicroConf attendee party, because that’s just my personal kind of compass of how far I will go for something. And for me popping up a lightbox is a little irritating, but that doesn’t mean that I judge people or websites that do it. I personally don’t TC;DR them.
[05:28] Mike: I think that what Ramit said about the “100% of the people who cheering this site have never run a website & seen the analytics behind it” I think that there’s a great deal of truth to that because I mean if you even look at in the startup community, people who are building businesses- there are all these people who are sitting on the sidelines who have never done that kind of thing before, and they’re sitting there Monday morning, armchair quarterback saying, “This is what you should be doing, and this is what I think you should do, and this is how I think it should work,” but at the same time they’ve never gone through the effort of trying to do any of that stuff. What I tend to find is that the people who I’ll say are out there and in the trenches and actually doing this stuff have a lot less negative things to say about the things that other people are working on than the people who have never even made the attempt. I’m kind of overgeneralizing here because I don’t want to say “everybody” because there’s certainly people who take this way, way too far like the second you get onto a website, boom: lightbox. That is annoying.
[06:27] There’s definitely a way to go too far. And there’s also that wide swath of comfortability where some people will say, “I will never do lightboxes,” and there’s other people who say, “I’m perfectly comfortable putting a lightbox up there because I want people to see the stuff that I’m creating because it is valuable, and if you have any of these types of challenges I can help you, but I need to be able to get in front of you in order to be able to do that.” So it’s definitely a comfortability thing, but I think that there’s a huge range of places where you can fall on that.
[06:56] Rob: I think you bring up a really good point. You know I have that phrase “it’s easy to criticize from the stands.” And you bring up the folks who criticize a business for- you’ll get emails that say, “Oh, you’re too expensive. You should never charge that much,” or let’s say you only have annual plans. You’re definitely going to get people who call and complain about that. Or maybe you have an ad headline or image- people just always have feedback about how you shouldn’t do that. You’re taking it too far. If you ask for a credit card up front people complain. But it’s easy to criticize from the stands. It’s like the people who are complaining about those things and probably this TC;DR thing have very, very likely never actually seen what it takes to build a business.
[07:33] Mike: And I think that in cases like this you get into situations where if you are not getting the number of leads that you need, then this very well may be the direction that you go in, and if that’s what gets you to the point where you are getting the number of leads that you need, then maybe that’s what it takes to build a business. And it’s hard for me to sit here and criticize somebody for doing that. Would I do it? Probably not. But would I criticize them for their business practices around that? If that’s what’s helping them stay in business, and I’m kind of making an assumption here that they are providing value, they’re not screwing little old ladies out of their Social Security checks. So Kyle, hopefully that gives you an idea of what Rob’s take and my take on that is.
[08:12] So I think today what we’re going to be doing is we’re going to be talking about our predictions for 2015. Why don’t we start off by going back to 2014 and talk about what those predictions were and see how well we did on those.
[08:22] Rob: So my first prediction for 2014 was that Twitter would become more profitable and piss off its users in the process, but that it would be a solid opportunity for paid placement and promotion for entrepreneurs. And that didn’t happen. Twitter is still not profitable. I don’t think it’s pissed off its users with the ads it’s done. It’s actually done a pretty good job. I haven’t heard much of an uproar. I do think it’s a solid opportunity for paid placement. I’ve heard a few folks making it work. I don’t think- it’s not Facebook was three years ago where a lot of folks were in there really making money, but I still am keeping my eye on it to figure out if Twitter is going to be a good paid acquisition platform.
[09:00] Mike: My prediction was that Apple releasing a new product is a gimme. And I would say that they probably didn’t necessarily release new product, did they? They didn’t come out with the watch. They announced it, but they didn’t actually release it.
[09:12] Rob: No, and my second prediction was that Apple would release an iWatch. And I actually meant- and I really did mean “announce”- rather than release, but it’s neither here nor there. My third prediction was that concierge services and concierge onboarding would become a requirement for SaaS apps in crowded markets. I don’t know how we measure that one. I know that a lot of people are doing concierge. I was on a call today with a SaaS entrepreneur who’s adding it, and the other person on the call already has it. I hear a lot- there’s several people in the building that my company is in that have added it in the last year so I don’t know if I would go as far as to say it’s a requirement if you’re in a crowded market, but I think it’s a really good differentiator, and I think people are using it to great effect unlike they were two or three years ago when very few of us were doing it.
[09:55] Mike: My next prediction was that more high profile acquisitions will start to be turned down – kind of reminiscent of what Snapchat did. And there was one called Cyanogen. They turned down a $1 billion dollar acquisition offer from Google. The thing is I don’t know whether there were other ones that I didn’t really pay attention to. I think the Snapchat one was kind of in everybody’s faces because it was one of the first ones where it was very public that they got turned down. I would probably give this half credit because there was one, but I don’t know if there was a lot more or anything like that.
[10:27] I think this next one that I had is a little bit difficult to measure as well, but investors are going to start to pour more money into startups. Do you have an idea?
[10:35] Rob: I mean, I’m looking at annual venture capital investment amount and deal volume and both of them- this is according to a report from Mattermark.com, and they showed 2013 there was 6,208 VC deals and in 2014 there was 6,700 so that’s up 500, and in addition the actual amount of money invested in venture deals looks like it goes up about twenty-three percent between 2013 and 2014. I’d give you a point.
[11:03] My fourth prediction was that Kickstarter would have a major multi-million dollar fail. And what I meant by that was that a product would come out and get funded and then not deliver and that it would be kind of a big catastrophe for them. And I would say that did not happen in 2014. There were some smaller dollar amount failures, but I think they increased kind of the restrictions on the Kickstarter program, and if people are failing they really are trying to get the money back at this point.
[11:32] Mike: My fourth prediction was that I don’t see a clear winner in either the game console market or tablets. I thought that it was going to go back and forth a lot, and I think that if you were to look at Xbox One and PS4, I don’t see a clear winner in that scenario. I don’t know if there’s a huge difference between them.
[11:48] Rob: My fifth prediction was that Apple would continue to lose market share as history repeats itself thirty years later. And specifically, I was talking about mobile devices, iPad, iPhone, that kind of stuff. Now, the iPad has been losing market share, but it’s funny – when I actually look at this diagram – they’ve been losing it really since late 2012 so the fact that I made this prediction a year after that really isn’t much of a prediction. I wasn’t fully aware of this, but it’s noticeable. Apple’s iPad market share of global tablet shipments has pretty much been consistently going down every quarter. There’s just so many other tablets, right? Android has done a good job of getting out there and Samsung and just all the other tablet makers have legitimate tablets on the market now as well as the Kindle Fire.
[12:32] I know a lot of folks are doing that instead of the iPad. Friends that I talk to have said that iPad is just too expensive for them. Well, I personally enjoy my iPad. I know that folks have a lot of alternatives these days, and in essence the same thing has happened with the iPhone. There are just so many solid phone alternatives. There has been a pretty steady decline in that as well.
[12:54] Mike: My next one was that Google Glass will become publicly available in 2014 or early 2015, and if you go out to Google’s website you can actually buy a pair of Google Glass right now, but it’s still considered a beta product. But I don’t think it’s something that they’re intent on releasing to the general public in mass quantities like people were predicting before. I still don’t see that anywhere in the near future.
[13:19] Rob: My last prediction for 2014 was that integration marketing would pick up steam as more companies offer APIs and become more connected, and integration marketing is actually an idea that I took from Ruben Gomez of Bidsketch back in the day, and it’s where you do integrations with other SaaS apps and other companies, and then you promote the integration, and you get them to promote you to their audience. And I know that I’ve been using this quite a bit, and we did more than a dozen integrations this year on Drip. I wouldn’t necessarily say that integration marketing has picked up steam.
[13:54] I do see that everyone, every SaaS app I know that comes out has an API within a few months of release, and that’s really cool. So the ubiquity of APIs and the ability to do these integrations is a good thing. I don’t know that I would necessarily say that a lot of people have jumped on this bandwagon and that it’s picked up steam, but it is definitely working for those who are using it.
[14:14] Mike: Yeah, I’ve noticed that there are full blown companies that are kind of coming up and creating services completely around other people’s APIs just like hooking from one API to another, so that’s kind of cool to see.
[14:26] So my last two predictions, one of them was more of our listeners are going to start flying solo. And we do get emails from people from time to time telling us what it is that they’re working on and asking us to add their website information over to where we highlight some of the successes that our listeners are having. And then the other one was that targeted marketing individuals will start to become a reality, and I haven’t really seen this. I guess what I was thinking was that you would start to see more individualized ads for people. I mean being able to go down and use big data to figure out who somebody is and be able to put targeted ads right in front of that specific person, and I haven’t really seen that. And I wonder if that’s more because of data anonymity or privacy concerns or anything like that.
[15:10] Rob: Yeah, I would definitely say it’s about privacy concerns, because privacy’s been a big issue with all the big players – Facebook, Twitter, and Google, even Apple coming out and basically saying, “We sell devices and we don’t want your data” trying to talk about how you could use Apple products instead of Android products because of Google collecting all the data about it. Who knows? But I do think that’s why that hasn’t come around. Not because the technology’s not there but because the privacy concerns would be big.
[15:35] Mike: So now that we’ve kind of covered what 2014 looked like, let’s talk about 2015. What our predictions are for 2015. Do you want to go first?
[15:43] Rob: Sure. My first prediction for 2015 is that Twitter will become profitable and piss off its users in the process, but it’ll be a solid opportunity for paid placement promotions.
[15:53] Mike: I think hindsight is 20/20.
[15:54] Rob: Does that sound familiar? [laughs]
[15:55] Mike: It does sound familiar. I’m not sure where I’ve heard this before.
[15:58] Rob: This is the exact same prediction I had for 2014, and I’m sticking by it. I think it’s going to happen in 2015. They’re not profitable now. I think they’ll do it in 2015.
[16:06] Mike: My first one is that net neutrality is going to take a much bigger stage this year. I think part of the reason I say this is because right now we’re starting to see Netflix, for example, is paying service providers for higher bandwith to serve their content out to people faster. I saw a study that showed their content delivery speed has increased by fifty percent since the beginning of the year, and if you look back at what Netflix has done, they’ve made deals with a lot of the major providers that will essentially help serve their content faster. And I don’t think that that bodes well for the startup world in general. I think there’s a lot of concerns around that. I mean, it works great for Netflix, and I’m sure that the ISPs are very happy that they’re getting more money in their pockets to help pay for upgrades, but I don’t necessarily think that they’re actually going to be doing a lot of the upgrades that they maybe promised to have.
[16:55] So it concerns me a little bit that there’s also people in congress who are talking about net neutrality, and when you listen to them talk they clearly have absolutely no idea what net neutrality meant in any historical form. That’s worrisome. That’s scary, because these people are supposedly the ones who are making the laws. I mean really it’s probably the lobbyists who are putting money in their pockets, but at the same time, it’s just a scary thing to look at. So I think that it’s going to become a much bigger deal this year.
[17:20] Rob: My next prediction is that video ads – and mostly I’m thinking about YouTube ads, but I’m sure there are some other platforms that’ll have the volume – that they will be a big opportunity for cheap clicks in 2015. I think this is a green field area, and not a lot of people are doing it. It’s kind of hard to come up with a video, and there’s just not a lot of competition for it in the advertiser space right now. So I’m hearing the rumblings, and I’m starting to dip my toe in these waters as well because right now it is cheaper clicks.
[17:51] And if Google would kind of get its act together a little bit with retargeting – because the YouTube retargeting is really poor. I just want to be able to put a pixel on my website, and then if someone visits, be able to have an ad shown to them on YouTube next time they visit, but it doesn’t work like that. You’d only retarget your YouTube video if someone has visited your YouTube channel or watched your YouTube video in the past or something, and since I don’t have any presence on YouTube that is completely useless to me. But if they actually did some real retargeting like Facebook and the web allows us to do, this could potentially be a pretty big win for Google.
[18:27] Mike: My second prediction is that the number of startups in the wearables category is going to skyrocket. And I say wearables not just in terms of the hardware that’s coming out but also the number of software startups that are going to start to come out and try and offer services around integrating data back and forth between the different wearables, offering dashboarding technology and social sharing of people’s accomplishments and things like that. I think if you look at some of the apps that are out there right now like MyFitnessPal and Lose It! and things like that there is some of that stuff that is out there now, but it doesn’t necessarily integrate with as much hardware as I see coming out. And I just see a huge opportunity for people to get in there and start connecting all of the different devices. Because if you look at some of those different providers right now they work with a handful of devices, and there are a lot of devices that are coming out.
[19:16] Rob: Yeah, and wearables are blowing up. I mean I think this is already starting. We have fitness bands, a lot of people are wearing. We also have the watch, watches that are coming out. We have glasses like Google Glass with headset displays. There’s even this jewelry coming out that can do- like rings and bracelets that can do minor notifications. There’s shoe attachments that I’ve heard of that are way more accurate at being a pedometer. There’s a lot of stuff that this category is set to blow up over the next several years.
[19:42] My next prediction is that virtual reality will actually be a hit with the early adopter set in 2015. I don’t think that all of us are going to own a virtual reality headset in 2015, and the promise of virtual reality has been floating around for twenty plus years. It’s like artificial intelligence, right? It’s the promise that never seems to come to fruition. But I think in 2015 the early adopter set is going to make it work and that probably as 2016 rolls around that more and more of us will have these. They’re basically inexpensive consumer level VR headsets. Samsung just released a $200 headset. It only works with, I think it’s the Note 4 phone, but that’s kind of their first foray into it. I would consider it like a post-beta product but not quite ready for production, and they kind of want to dip their toe in the water. And I think 2015 is going to be when a lot of the legitimate VR headsets start coming out and we really start seeing what they can be used for and whether VR headsets are going to only be for gaming? Will we use them in video conferencing? You know, it’d be interesting to have a 3D view of everyone instead it’s not just these flat images. Would that be more engaging? We don’t know yet because everyone doesn’t have them. So I think there’s a lot of potential for it in the coming year.
[20:55] Mike: Well, that’ll be interesting to see with the Facebook Rift.
[20:57] Rob: Yeah, indeed. Yeah. Oculus, right? Yeah, and I was actually going to say that with my Kickstarter prediction I said that they would have a major multi-million dollar failure. They didn’t have that with the Rift because it raised the money and was delivering the product, but Facebook’s acquisition of them raised a pretty big stink, right? The question of like why did all these people back the Kickstarter if they were just going to take a billion dollars from Facebook? So that was I guess a controversy around them.
[21:22] Mike: Well, my next prediction is that Google is going to screw all bootstrap startups, and there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it. And I don’t have any details about this, I just have this feeling that there’s going to be something that they do, and it’s going to go probably much further than they’ve gone in the past, and basically they’re just going to screw anyone who’s doing internet marketing if you don’t do things the way that you want them to do them. I just don’t trust them anymore.
[21:44] Rob: What could this possibly be? They’ve already taken away all of our organic keywords, the ad rates continue to increase as competition goes up. What else could they do, Mike?
[21:53] Mike: I think that they could probably move much more towards basically forcing you to almost pay for rankings. Just the amount of data that they have and the strides that they’ve have made towards pushing people to pay for paid advertising, it just makes me wonder about when is the day going to come where they’re going to say, “Well, you know what? We’re just going to kind of flip the switch, and half the page is going to be ads for whatever it was that you searched for, and if you want to go to an organic search, you’re going to have to go to this other place over here.
[22:24] Otherwise it’s all going to be all paid advertisements for specifically what it is that you’re looking for.” I think they would be able to make a pretty solid argument that, “Well, if you search for this then clearly you want this particular type of product or this particular type of information, and there’s people who are willing to pay to put it in front of you.” So I can see them going in that direction.
[22:43] Rob: My next prediction is that we will see our first sub $100 a year consumer-level five terrabyte cloud storage service. Dropbox “ten Xed” the amount of storage they give you just a couple months ago. It was 100 gigs for a long time and they just increased that to a terrabyte, but I think we’re going to see five terrabytes within 2015, and that’ll be cool.
[23:07] Mike: Well, my next prediction is that Google Glass isn’t going to go anywhere fast.
[23:11] Rob: To think that Google Glass is not going anywhere fast is like- that’s it. I think the last nail in Google Glass’s coffin was a few months ago. It’s done already. I mean, is anybody- they haven’t done anything with it. They haven’t done any new releases, they’re not promoting it.
[23:24] Mike: I think the issue is that they’re trying to find good use cases for it. And I think there are definitely some really good use cases for it, but the problem is that they’re not mainstream uses. There’s no giant market there that I can think of that “Google Glass solves this whole slew of problems and it would be generally useful for just about everybody,” and I just don’t see that.
[23:44] Rob: And do you predict the same for the heads up display contact lenses that they are looking at? I’ve heard Google is researching this as well as some other companies. If they replace the dorky looking glasses with actual contacts so it’s much less visible, do you think that that could have legs?
[24:00] Mike: No, not really. I don’t see it happening. You still have no good way to interact with it, and that’s the problem. You don’t have a good input device. And unless it can start reading your brain waves to figure out what you’re thinking of to be able to modify– like move things around on the interface while you’re looking at it or something like that — that’d be totally different. But still that would take a pretty significant learning curve. There’s a huge amount of engineering that would need to go into that, and I don’t see that happening anywhere in the near future. So unless they come out with like a radically new input mechanism for directing or controlling these devices, I don’t think that it makes a difference.
[24:37] Rob: What if voice control got better?
[24:39] Mike: The thing is you can use voice control for your phone right now, and I don’t particularly use it. I use it when I’m driving. I don’t see most people out there talking to their phones if they’re trying to get things done. They’ll tap into it. They’ll type. They’ll use the keyboard. The software works reasonably well, but I don’t think people feel comfortable talking to their devices and asking it for information. I think they’d rather just type it in.
[25:02] Rob: My fifth and final prediction for 2015 is that we will start to see 3D printers in the houses of our early adopter friends. So I don’t think we’ll see mass adoption by the end of 2015, but I do think that our kids are definitely going to grow up seeing 3D printers potentially in our houses in the next couple years and definitely with our early adopter geeky tech friends such as myself. We’ll have a 3D printer in 2015.
[25:29] Mike: My last prediction is that cloud platforms and services are going to be generally viewed as a commodity by the end of the year, and there’s not going to be a lot of differentiation between them other than brand identity. So you’ll have the Rackspace cloud and the Microsoft cloud and the Amazon cloud, and if you take a look at the services themselves those different platforms offer you’re not going to see a whole lot of difference between them, and people are going to start associating themselves with a particular brand as opposed to going with one of them because of the specific services that they offer. So storage, queues, storing video – that sort of stuff – people are just going to use whatever cloud they happen to like the vendor of.
[26:10] Rob: Is that not the case right now? Because like when I went to look for hosting I could have gone with Rackspace or Amazon, and I picked Amazon for brand identity and because some other people were using it, frankly. But is there that much differentiation now that you think is going to change in the next twelve months?
[26:27] Mike: By “services” I don’t necessarily mean like hosting. Like Amazon Web Services, they have all these different services you can use, and hosting is just one of them. The same thing with Azure. When Azure started out it was they had hosted servers that you could use, but then they started adding in Linux and all these other distributions that you could use in addition to the Microsoft operating systems. And then they started adding in a lot of the things that Amazon had already been offering in terms of block storage and things like that. And Rackspace has kind of been doing the same thing kind of the whole time with their open stack technology. And I think that over time what we’re seeing is that the services themselves that they’re offering, at this point, they’re just competing on price. And it almost doesn’t matter which service you go through or which vendor you buy from; you’re going to get almost identical services from each of them.
[27:18] Rob: So we’re interested in hearing your thoughts on our predictions for 2015. You can tweet us at @robwalling and @SingleFounder. And if you have a question for us, call our voicemail number at 1-888-801-9690 or email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. Our theme music is an excerpt from “We’re Outta Control” by Moot used under Creative Commons. Subscribe to us on iTunes by searching for “startups,” and visit startupsfortherestofus.com for a full transcript of each episode. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.