[00:00] Mike: On this episode of Startups for the Rest of Us,we’re going to be talking about Seven Tips for Becoming aBetter Manager. This is Startups for the Rest of Us: Episode 129.
[00:15] Mike: Welcome to Startups for the Rest of Us, the podcast that helps developers, designers and entrepreneurs be awesome at launching software products, whether you’ve built your first product or you’re just thinking about it. I’m Mike.
[00:23] Rob: And I’m Rob.
[00:23] Mike: And we’re here to share our experiences to help you avoid the same mistakes we’ve made. What’s the good word this week, Rob?
[00:27] Rob: Two good words, MicroConf Europe. I’m…I’m excited. So, we have a little announcement to make. If you go to microconfeurope.com, we are putting on a conference and it looks like it’s going to be in Prague in early October. We don’t have all the details ironed out at this point. But if you are at allinterested, we’d love to hear from you. I’ll have a little e-mail sign up there and they’re trying to get an idea of how many folks want to come but we have nail down pretty serious talks with hotel and getting the logistics up. And we’ve had a lot of request over the past three years to have another MicroConf like either on the East Coast of the US or somewhere in Europe because a lot of folks aren’t able to make it out to Vegas.
[01:07] Mike: Yes, so that’ll be really excited. It’s interesting being in the pre-planning phases of putting together the conference. So we’ll just — we’ll definitely be working pretty hard towards that and especially since, you know, we’re still kind of just finishing up the current MicroConf.
[01:18] Rob: Speaking of that, how is it going with the planning?
[01:20] Mike: I feel like I have zero free time.
[01:22] Rob: We do this every year, right? Every year –
[01:24] Mike: Right.
[01:24] Rob: …we talk early on and we’re like, “You know we should hire a coordinator. We should figure out to outsource more of this.” And then we decide not to. And every year about this time, it’s like, “Oh man, now I know. Next year, next year we’re going to figure out how to delegate more of this.”
[01:36] Mike: So, yeah, I mean, I’m just spending a lot of time on that. You know, I don’t even have the time right now to plan out the AuditShark launch which I was hoping to do like two weeks after MicroConf. So, because of that I’m not even able to put stuff in place to kind of follow through with that. So, you, know, it’s unfortunate but I think I’m just going to perhaps turn my attention to it back once MicroConf is over. But other than that, I’ve started realizing that I need to kill certain things. So one of the things that I’ve decided to outright kill, remember when we discussed some of our goals for the year early on? One of them was for me to write a book. And I’ve decided that at this point I’m just going to kill that.
[02:11] And it’s kind of dead in the water right now. I’m just not going to spend any more time or effort thinking about it or looking at it just because I got so many others things going on and it doesn’t really makes a lot of sense for me to dedicate that time when because that was such a long-term play, I feel like I can come back to it later. And it’s not going to materially affect the things that I’m working on now.
[02:33] Rob: Right. Because you were looking at that both as an experience of writing a book but also as a potentially a marketing opportunity for AuditShark and it’s kind of like until, you know, until you hit the app out there and get people using it, it’s not, in my opinion, worth all the effort of getting a book out purely. If you don’t have the app, it’s really not worth the effortof getting the book out there.
[02:52] Mike: Right, right. So, yeah, I’ve decided to kill that. I’m looking at a couple of other things that are potentially on the chopping block to just cut down on the demands on my time.
[03:01] Rob: Yup, twice a year I do this exact process you’re talking about. And you have to. I’m a big believer in eliminating couple of times a year making a point of going down that list and killing the things that either aren’t working or that you’re just never going to do that have kind of — I find that things that sit on my to-do list for a long, long time that I never do, they stressed me out because I feel like I’m slacking or I feel like I’m,you know, giving in to the resistance to not doing them. And just making the decision, you know, this isn’t worth doing and that’s why I haven’t been doing it. I’m taking them off the list, does wonders for my mental stress.
[03:35] Mike: Yes, so I’m thinking the exact same thing. So hopefully, that’ll…that’ll help out to just kind of move on, get other things done.
[03:40] Rob: Yeah, very good.
[03:41] Mike: So, what else you got going on?
[03:44] Rob: Well, I had a couple of things. One, I am starting to work with a couple of bloggers and content creators getting some kind of a pillar articles out on e-mail marketing. This is for the Drip Blog. So, right now the Drip Blog is completely bare and there’s no post. But I want to start that, both the content marketing angle and the SEO angle. I want to start that early. I had on a list to do a month or two ago and just have been caught up with other things. I’m putting that in full swing in the past week here and I have two leads on some looks like some very good bloggers and several ideas for posts based on bunch of research I’ve done. So, that I’ll be tackling over the next –well it’ll be on going, you know, every month we’ll put out a new content. But my hope is that we get the first post out here inabout the next thirty days and then build from there.
[04:33] Mike: Now for those bloggers that you’ve found, are they familiar with e-mail marketing or they’re just good writers that are going to be doing a research on that?
[04:41] Rob: I sought out both meaning people who have both of those skills and it’s actually really hard to find someone who has both of those skills. The two people I’ve found are both exceptional writers and they know how to write headlines and they know about marketing and conversions. And then they have some experience in e-mail marketing and they have written posts in the past on e-mail marketing. So although they may not, you know, doing e-mail marketing fulltime all the time, they do know the value of it and the concepts and all the verbiage and we’ll probably do, you know, some research in order to fill out the articles.
[05:13] Last thing for me is I finished the book. It’s called The Launch Pad: Inside Y Combinator. I’ve mentioned that last week. You know, I didn’t take anything super actionable away from it aside from thinking about startup ideas in a different way because of how…how Paul Graham thinks about it. I think if you’re easily swayed and it’s kind of sucked in to that world of the high gross startup and it turns out to be a distraction for you, I would say do not listen to this book or do not read it because it really like gets you fired up to get in to this…this magical world. But they…they follow the 63 startup teams through the Y Combinator series and they get — they go back and look at, you know, several years earlier and all the successes. They talked a little about the failures but to — in my opinion not enough, you know, it’s the natural selection biased.
[05:58] And since it is written by a journalist, there’s a certain amount of romanticism around things. It’s a slog, right? It’s a slog to get a lot of the stuff done and that isn’t — I don’t – didn’t feel like that was necessarily well-enough represented.But overall, it’s a very good book and I would recommend if you’re in to this kind of thing here in startup tales that that you do check it out.
[06:17] Mike: Cool.
[06:22] Mike: Today’s episode is – and titled Seven Tips for Becoming a Better Manager. And, I was thinking about it in episode 120, we talked a lot about Growing Your Business Past Employee Zero. But one of the things we didn’t talk about was how to manage the scaling of your business. So, today we’re going to do that. As part of scaling up your business, it tends to mean getting help from other people. And you know, as we talked about on episode 120, there’s a lot different types of people that you can bring into your business. And what we’re going to do today is we’re going to discuss the things that go in to managing those people that you bring into your business.
[06:51] Rob: Yeah. I think that these counts both for contract designers and developers, virtual assistants but it could also mean if you do make that choice to hire an employee to all of the supplies across the board, right? This isn’t just for employees, it’s contractors, consultants and VAs and all that.
[07:08] Mike: Yeah, that’s a really good point to make. The tipone is “To go online with everything.” It’s really hard to manage other people when you have any sort of paper-based system. And whether the paper that you’re dealing with is either orprocessing or accounting systems or legal paperwork or anything like that, you really need to be able to get as much of the stuff online as you possibly can. And this can include having your bills e-mailed to you or sent to a service like Mailbox Forwarding or Earth Class Mail and then these items are going to be available remotely and digitally without taking up any of your time or effort.
[07:40] Rob: Should this episode be Seven Tips for Becoming a Better Remote Manager or do you think this applies also to people who are actually working in a same location as their contractors or employees?
[07:50] Mike: I think this applies to both and one of the things that, you know, on the surface it may look it is geared specifically towards managing remote workers because obviously if you got a bill mailed to you and you have to0 then turn around and scan it and send it to somebody, then it makes it a little bit more difficult. But even if somebody is in your office, maybe they’re busy, maybe they’re not available, they are in a meeting, they’re doing other things, it’s a lot easier to e-mail something to somebody or use an online system and say, “Hey, here I need you to deal with this.” And then when they’re available, when it fits their schedules so that you’re not interrupting them in the middle of their work, then they can deal with it. As opposed to just walking in to their office and saying, “Hey, you know, I’m going to interrupt whatever you’re doing because this is “more important” than whatever you’re working on now and I need you to deal with itbecause it’s not worth my time.”
[08:33] Rob: Yup, cloud, cloud, cloud. I would say anything you’re doing with a new business, you should try to get it into the cloud and that includes accounting like I would always opt for in an online accounting package like a SaaS. Even though I’m, you know, not be paying more for it, QuickBooks, you can pay a one-time fee and then I guess a manual upgrade or something. But I just think having that all like up on a website and accessible is the way to go. And anytime there’s a question about should I have like my bill paying is all done online through my bank, everything I can possibly do. Time tracking is done online through a website. Just anything you can do to get off your computer and off of any single point of failure where it’s… it’s sitting on your laptop is better.
[09:15] Obviously, you know, if you’re listening to this podcast,you’re probably already using Dropbox to share bunch of stuff. I mean, you definitely did think about that when you’re working with remote or even on-site workers and it’s like you said because if you have a file on your laptop it still is a pain to get it to other people within the same office unless you have like a professional file…file share setup and Dropbox is just such an easier way to do that.
[09:37] Mike: And one of the things that you just said was about, you know, for especially for online accounting systems and having those things available it’s — even if it costs a little bit more money because typically those things you’re paying a monthly fee form and they do cost more money. You can buy a license for QuickBooks for, you know, a 150, $200, it’ll cost you$30 a month to get that as a hosted service. So, there’s obviously that money trade-off that you’re going to be making but it can be well-worth it in terms of, you know, the time that it saves you.
[10:04] Tip number two is “To make sure that your expectations are clear upfront.” Nobody likes to be told that they did something wrong or didn’t follow a process when you never either told them about it or never fully explained what that process was. You need to establish the rules and guidelines for new people upfront and you need to make sure that those things are clear. If they ever aren’t or they start deviating from them,follow up very quickly because if those expectations aren’t being met, then you need to correct whatever that processes that they’re supposed to be following. Everyone should be well-informed of exactly what is expected of them and they should have concrete goals so that they understand what it is that they’re working towards.
[10:40] Rob: Yeah. Last round when I hired a VA to handle support on the couple of apps, it’s funny that giving clear expectations is not as cumbersome or it doesn’t take as long as you think it does. I mean I’ve made some pretty basic statements of, “I want you to check, you know, check the support account twice a day preferably, you know, eight to twelve hours apart based on what works for you. It doesn’t really matter the time of day, you know, all things responded to it at that point or send over to me. And in general, like we are way, you know, customer-focused so, like if someone asks for a refund. When in doubt, treat them like you’d want to be treated and only if it’sreally a big deal, someone asks for three months of refunds or something, then you get me involve.” And it was a very short list by the time I get down to it. I think that setting clear expectations if you hire the right people is quite easy to do because they just tend to do…they just tend to make good decisions. They tend to make decisions like you would probably make them. And you just have to give them some very general guidelines.
[11:44] Now, if you hire people who maybe wouldn’t make the same decisions you do, then you run into a problem because now you have to start specifying every single thing they do. Oh,when you’re a solo-preneur, you’re working with a couple of contractors or maybe you have one or two employees, it’s critical that you do hire people who can — are going to be more likely to make decisions like you or going to –someone’s, you know, make the right call because that just cuts down on a lot of misunderstandings and you’ve – I find that you have to set a lot fewer expectations explicitly because they’re going to tend to do what you are doing in the first place.
[12:18] Mike: Tip number three is “To overshare” and this applies to providing more than the minimum amount of information to people when you’re delegating tasks to them. Tell them as much as you can, give them at least some background on why they’re doing this specific task because this helps them to make those good decisions that you’ve just talked about on whatever it is that they’re working on. If they don’t understand the end goal, it’s a lot harder for them to make good decisions and to do what you would have expected them.
[12:44] Rob: Yeah, I’ve definitely made this mistake in the past of not sharing enough and thinking that I could just put together a bulleted list of a process and a process or multiple processes and expects someone to follow that and then to make the right decisions because they may be able to follow that but making the right decisions requires more background. And you know, as you’ve stated it in here, requires a bit of oversharing that may not seem required at first but that down the line really helps you out.
[13:10] I think the best way I’ve found to overshare is not to put it into a document because people skim through long paragraphs of prose and they wanted to get to the process and see what they have to do. The best way is to record a screencast or at least the best way I’ve found. And that’s because you can sit there and you can talk with, you know, you have a human voice and you can have some intonation and you can show them, “You know, this is just — this is a really hard decision to make but when someone does this, here’s how I typically handle it. But if they do this other thing then you know, I’d probably do this.” And you really would never put that down on a document that would just seem ridiculous. But if you’re actually sitting there and you record a 5 or 10-minute screencast and they watch the whole thing through, they’re so much more likely to kind of retain the main point and the main mission or the vision that you’re trying to communicate rather than just think about, “Oh, what are the exact bullet points that I have to follow?”
[13:58] Mike: Tip number four is “To learn to stretch [0:14:00]delegate” and this means giving tasks to people who you think it’s going to be a stretch for them to meet those tasks or meet those goals. You need to be careful not to go too far over someone’s head but people really enjoy challenges. They don’t want to be bored with their jobs and this type of delegation is going to help them find their jobs more enjoyable.
[14:19] So there’s three things that doing this really accomplishes. The first is that it forces people to use their brains and really think about and understand what it is that they’re doing and what they’re trying to accomplish. Second is that it provides them with a sense of trust because you’re giving them an important task that is kind of on the edge of their skillset. And they’re going to know that this is probably on the edge of their skillset and they’re going to appreciate that, you know, youare entrusting them to this. And the third thing that it does is that it allows you to asses where they are with the new organization and allows you to figure out whether or not you can entrust them with some more advanced tasks and essentially move them along with your organization as opposed to using them for one-off task and then going to find somebody else for the next task.
[15:01] So, you’re looking to help establish a long-term relationship with whoever this person is. And it applies more to contractors than anything else but even internally if you have an employee who you’ve hire, you want to be able to gage what their skillset is and how quickly they’re learning and how quickly they’re understanding what your company is about and, you know, really be able to follow through on more important things later on.
[15:24] Rob: I’ve found that stretch delegation works really well with either a contractor or employee who you have a relationship with and who you’ve worked with for a while. But with new folks they’re not going to want to do that, right? Because they’re concern that if it’s an early project and they fail that you don’t have enough of a relationship built up that you’ll overlook that. And so, that’s the first rule I think is to look at someone you’ve been working with for awhile, you have a rapport and you know, you trust them and they trust you so thatif they did crash and burn, you know that they’re still super capable of what they’re doing. I mean that they don’t necessarily feel bad or guilty or something like they didn’t deliver for you.
[16:03] The second thing is I’ve kind of have a formula when I do a stretch delegation typically is via e-mail and I’ll write and say, “Hey, are you up for this?” And the first thing I do is say, “Here’s what we need to do.” You know, I’d say, it’s like it’s a team thing like, “We’re going to release this new feature and it’s going to take you a bit outside of anything you’ve done before. Are you interested?” And so I asked them and leave it in their core. But then, I let them know number one, “I know that you can do this. I know that you are capable and I know that you can step up to this.” So, it’s about their confidence. Number two, I say, “I will train you like I will show you how I would do it, I will show you the decisions we have to make and I will be there to support you so when things fall apart we’ll work on it together to…to solve it.” And then number three, just to let them know that, you know, this doesn’t rest solely on their shoulders. I’m not just going to bail on this thing and trust them to handle it all that I’m actually going to be there to make sure that it gets on right and they work together and that if they decided that they don’t want to do it down the line, that they don’t have to.
[17:01] So, I really give them a lot of outs to…to feel comfortable saying, “You know what? I’ll give it a try.” And nine times out of ten, it works really well and like what you said it actually keeps people happy because it’s expanding their skills, they’re learning new things and it adds some variants to what otherwise, you know, could become kind of a humdrum job.
[17:19] Mike: Tip number five is “To acknowledge people’s accomplishments.” When somebody does a good job withsomething, you have to make sure that you acknowledge that and you tell them. And this really applies much more to the new things that you ask of people rather than the daily or weekly task that you have ask them to do. Nobody wants to hear, “Thanks for the 39th consecutive weekly report e-mailed to me by 3 p.m.on Friday. Way to go.” But if you have a task or project that was challenging and the person really stepped up to the plate, make sure that person is aware that you appreciate them for tackling the job and being successful with it.
[17:50] Rob: The nice part about acknowledging accomplishment is it allows you to on the flipside also be very honest when someone makes a mistake or has a failure because people feel like you’re going to tell them both, the good and the bad. If you’re always pointing out mistakes, then people get discouraged. If you’re only pointing out accomplishments, then people start wondering like, “What is this guy? Basically, lying to me, not telling me when I’m making mistakes or just not being upfront and honest.” So I think you need to cover both sides of this coin. But definitely calling out accomplishments is the fun part. I think that’s the fun part of leading and managing people is letting someone know when they just totally kicked ass on a task and pointing out exactly why and how they did a good job like not just the, “Wow, this is great,” but say like, “Here’s how you executed, here’s how you totally stepped up to the plate on this one, and here’s the impact that’s now going to have on our business or our support process or a sales process like you really made the difference.”
[18:45] Because most of the time people aren’t doing a task surely that the clock hours they wanted to see how or what they’re doing makes a difference within the organization. And Ithink acknowledging someone’s accomplishment involves letting them know that just as much as it is patting him on the back and saying, “You know, you did…you did really a good job.”
[19:03] Mike: Tip number six is “To understand that people make mistakes” and by people, I don’t just mean the people who you are delegating task to but yourself as well. The fact is that nobody is perfect and you’re very likely to screw up management somewhere along the way. But making mistakes is critical to the learning process and in fact, sometimes it’s better to allow other people to make some mistakes so that they become a better worker down the road.
[19:26] Now, as a manager you’re taking responsibility for other people’s actions but the last thing you wanted to be responsible for is their mistakes too. You want to try to find ways to avoid mistakes in the future and to correct your processes to account for those mistakes. But you also want to be careful not to necessarily step in too early when somebody is starting to make a mistake. Sometimes it’s better to let them kind of make a little bit of a mistake or something that, you know, is correctable later on so that they’ll learn how not to do something as opposed to stepping in and immediately correcting them, you know, when you see things start going wrong.
[19:58] Now, if they’re going down a completely wrong path and you know that it’s just a rabbit hole that’s going to be filled with all sorts of things that you just don’t want to have to deal with or if you’re on a very strict timeline then obviously, you know, you want to probably step in a little bit earlier. But if they’re making some mistakes here and there along the way that are probably not completely critical or not going to totally blow apart whatever it is that you’re working on, you can generally get away with letting them make some of those minor mistakes so that they get back on track and they’ve learned how to do those things better in the future.
[20:27] Rob: When I first started delegating e-mail support, I made mistakes. I made the mistake of being too specific about what people should do during different scenarios. And so as an example, I’d have like the refund process and how it should be handled and here’s the reply email and all of the stuff. And I thought it had to be all detailed. Nowadays, I have a general rule for each of my products and when I hand that off to a VA or support person, I say, “Just handle it like you’re authorized to refund up to X dollars and you’re authorized to make the customer happy.” It’s so much better. They feel — the VA or the support person feels like they’re in more control, the customers are happier because they get really fast service and I’m happier because I’m not bothered now by — I used to get bothered by every refund request. I would say, “You know, don’t refund money until you show it me because I might have some prior history with this person or with the account and we may not want to refund it or whatever.” And that just has gone away.
[21:25] And for every 19 times it’s done correct, there’s maybe one time where it’s like, “Hah, you know, I wouldn’t have made that call.” But the fact is getting all 20 of those off my plate and never seeing them and never being a bottleneck is better for the customer, it’s better for my support people and it’s better for the entire business. And so, I think…I think that’s a big part is thatunderstanding the people may make mistakes but it’s better to have a small amount of mistakes than to have all these oversight. And I don’t know if you’ve heard the expression about building a$10,000 fence around a $1,000 product, you know. It’s like you’re almost spending more time [0:22:00] and headache to protect from something going wrong when one thing that goes wrong really isn’t going to make that much of a difference to your business.
[22:08] Mike: Tip number seven is “To treat everybody fairly and with empathy.” And everybody is different but the way you treat them shouldn’t be. You don’t need to establish official policies or procedures for absolutely everything but you do need to make sure that you’re treating people fairly. And one of the issues that I’ve seen before is that policies can get in the way of doing something that guidelines and goals could be used for instead. So, rather than using policies for how to handle a specific situation, you can just use general guidelines and goals for the company that will allow you some flexibility. And you don’t want to be put into a situation where you absolutely have to do or follow the letter of whatever the policy states because you wrote a policy for it.
[22:46] You’re much better off being in the position where you can kind of make a judgment call based on the situation or the circumstances and things like that. And that as — you’ve talked about earlier with the — your support people, you say you givethem some general guidelines and just kind of turn them loose. And one time out of twenty, they’ll make a different call than you would but at the same time by just having those guidelines in place for yourself as opposed to putting together written policies that the company has to operate by, then you give yourself that flexibility to make a different call when the situation warrants it.
[23:18] Rob: You know, these last two tips may feel you might be listening to them and thinking, “Oh this is…this is obvious.Why were they even bringing this up?” But couple of things, one, they may not be obvious to everyone. I bet there are few people out there listening, thinking, “Yeah. You know, I’d never thought of that.” Number two, it’s a lot easier to hear this than it is to actually learn them. It’s a lot more work to actually treat people fairly and with empathy and to understand that people make mistakes. And you grow into that as a manager. So that’swhy we’re bringing them up, so you can actively be thinking about them as you are guiding people —
[23:50] Mike: Oh —
[23:50] Rob: …and actual example though not just talking about it.
[23:52] Mike: Somebody goes missing for a couple of days and they don’t e-mail back, you may very well say, “Well I’m going to can this person. You know, let him go as a contractor or whatever.” And then you find out a week later that their mother died or something like that.
[24:03] Rob: That’s one situation but someone might say well, they should’ve texted you or e-mailed you or something. But that’s a hard one. If you fired them and then found that out, yes,of course, you’d rehire…you’d rehire [Laughter] them if you are empathetic, you know. But also depends on the person, like ifthey were a really solid worker, I wouldn’t — and they went missing, I would not fire them like I would instantly think, oh,something happened. But if they —
[24:26] Mike: Right.
[24:27] Rob: …kind of been flaky and not really communicative the whole time, then it’s like, “Ah, they were kind of on the edge anyways.” There’s that balancing act.
[24:34] Mike: That’s why it’s a perfect example though because if you have like just a written blanket policies as well, if you go missing for two days or four days or whatever and you’re non-responsive through e-mails or and maybe they’re based overseas or something like that so you don’t have a direct line of communication with them, you can’t just call them up or go over to their house. If they don’t respond, if your policy just says,“Well, I’m going to let them go,” and then they come back a week later with that and you have to abide by that policy, yousay, “Well, I’m sorry that, you, you know, you had a death in thefamily but you didn’t call us so, too bad.” Whereas by using goals and guidelines for the company as your compass that gives you the flexibility to make a different judgment call based on situation.
[25:13] Rob: That makes sense.
[25:14] Mike: So the recap, tip number one is “To go online with everything.” Tip number two “Make sure your expectations are very clear with everybody upfront.” Tip number three is “To overshare information” and make sure you’ve given everybody enough information about the tasks that they’re doing to make effective decisions. Tip number four is “Learn to stretch delegate.” Tip five is “To acknowledge people’saccomplishments.” Tip six, “Understand that people make mistakes including yourself” and tip seven is “To treat everybody fairly and with empathy.”
[25:44] Rob: We actually had a voicemail from Terry at theBuild My Online Store Podcast. He had a couple of more tips surrounding episode 125 and are working from the outside the office hacks.
[25:58] Voicemail: “Hey, Rob and Mike. It’s Terry here frombuildmyonlinestore.com. I like the episode…episode 125 about Optimizing Your Productivity Outside the Office. I think two things that I found helpful, one, is the iPhone USB charger. So, what happens is if you’re outside in a coffee shop and you’re tethering your internet, it tends to drain the battery pretty fast. So, one thing that happened to me is that I forgot to bring my charger once and sometimes your phone just had half battery and you could probably end up hearing the whole thingwhile you’re outside and it could be a real jargon. So, the second thing is I actually bring menthol along with me. So, sometimes, you know, you’re outside, you’re hungry at the coffee shop. You don’t want to bring too much food or you don’t want to buy too much food. Menthol is actually a pretty good way to kind of control your hunger throughout the day and you just need a break to kind of refresh yourself. You take a mint, go for a walk and kind of take it easy. So, thanks for the episode. I found it really helpful and talk to you soon.”
[26:46] Rob: So, thanks for the call Terry. If you have a question or a comment and you like to leave us a voicemail and have us potentially play on an episode, you can call us at 888-801-9690. Our e-mail is email@example.com. Our theme music is an excerpt from “We’re Outta Control” by MoOt used under Creative Commons. Subscribe to us on iTunes by searching for startups or via RSS atstartupsfortherestofus.com where you’ll also find a full transcript of each episode. Thanks for listening. We’ll, see you next time.