In this episode of Startups For The Rest Of Us, Rob and Mike give their thoughts on the ultimate guide to email sequences. Based on an article they define an email sequence, discuss why you should create one, and list the different types of sequences and their purpose.
Items mentioned in this episode:
- The Ultimate Guide to Email Sequences Article
Rob [00:00]: In the episode of Startups for the Rest of Us you are about to experience, Mike and I give our thoughts, feelings, inspiration. What else Mike? Our perspiration on an article called ‘The Ultimate Guide to Email Sequences.’ This is Startups for the Rest of Us, Episode 333. Welcome to Startups for the Rest of Us, a podcast that helps developers, designers and entrepreneurs be awesome at building launching and growing software products, whether you’ve built your first product or you’re just thinking about it. I’m Rob.
Mike [00:35]: I’m Mike
Rob [00:36]: We’re here to share our experiences to help you avoid the same mistakes we’ve made. What do you think about that new intro?
Mike [00:40]: I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve ever heard you read the intro that fast before.
Rob [00:45]: Yeah, I know. I kind of zipped through it. What’s going on with you?
Mike [00:48]: Still working on doing demos and stuff for Blue Tick. It’s interesting. I’m talking to more and more people who want to add teams and so far the apps are only geared towards single users just because of all the other things that need to go into it in terms of privacy and data sharing between different people, even within the same account. Right now, we’re working on trying to figure out how to extend the system to support people who are working in more of a team environment and figuring out how to essential overlay permissions within a subscription over the top of what we’ve got and without breaking things, obviously because that’s kind of important. It’s been a challenge so far so it’s more about [?]. Things are going well.
Rob [01:25]: All right. But you do have customers that are coming on board that don’t need team stuff, right? That’s got to be your short-term play while you architect, build or whatever you’re going to do with the team stuff. It doesn’t seem like teams should stop you from launching, right? Or at least it doesn’t seem like it should stop you from getting to that 25 customer mark.
Mike [01:43]: No. I’m definitely not stopping it but it’s like we have to figure out how it’s going to work and think about all the different places where we need to make changes and that’s really what we’re doing is we’re planning it and trying to identify where the challenging spots are and if there’s any other things that are going to need a change under the covers because of it and then again the privacy issues just because we’ve got access to people’s mailboxes. A quick example, like let’s say that somebody throws a-when you throw a new email address into the system, up until that point, we don’t download any of the contents of the emails associated with it. As soon as you do, then we go back and we say, “Okay, well, these were all the emails that were sent and received to that email address. Now we’re going to download the contents of them so that they can be then displayed inside the app.” Let’s say that you and I are in the same account and you’ve emailed your wife, for example, and I throw your wife’s email address in as a contact, well, it’s going to trigger that. Should things be shared? Should they not? It’s just a very difficult problem to work through and think about the implications of everything. That’s where we’re focused on. You’re right. It doesn’t stop us from moving forward on all the other stuff and I’m certainly not. My work around [?] at this point is, “Hey, let’s sign you up for multiple subscriptions and then we’ll figure it out.”
Rob [02:57]: Yeah, that’s nice. Having a work around is huge. That’s what we’ve realized over the years. Someone always wants something that you don’t have yet. If you can figure out a way to get them set up in a way that is at least reasonable and they can continue to use it until you get that feature built. It’s pretty nice. That’s the way to get a lot of customers. That’s why I found with the best sales folks are the ones who don’t just listen to the customer say, “I want permissions,” and so it says, they come to tack and say, “All right,” the product team and they say, “All right, you need to build permissions.” But it’s like, “No, there’s probably a work around and like you’re saying, being able to have multiple accounts is one way to do that.
Mike [03:34]: I had somebody who wanted to do something and I said, “Hey, let’s get out a call. I just want to talk for a minute or two,” because he was already a customer. He’s like, “Hey, can I add somebody else in?” We just got in a call and talked it out. All he wanted to do was be able to send the emails from another account as well. I was like, “You can do that today. You don’t need a full blown account or anything.” We basically just bypassed the issue entirely, which was nice because I added another user and it didn’t take any real extra work on my part in terms of engineering or anything like that. It was just a quick call to say, “What is it you’re looking for?” As soon as I found it out, he’s just, “Okay, yeah, let’s just do this.” Made it easy.
Rob [04:09]: Cool. On my end, I only had one thing this week. I am about a quarter of the way through a book called ‘What Got You Here won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful.’ The reason I’m pretty intrigued by it, it’s written by Marshall Goldsmith and Mark Reiter and one of them is a masterful consultant for successful people and what he’s seen in his patterns over the years as he’s worked with these folks is that a lot of successful people still have a major flaw in their personality that is holding them back. He basically goes through the 10 or 12 that he’s seen. One of them is you give too much feedback or you always feel like you need to chime in [?] on your team or you’re too negative and you always poke up the holes or you’re too casual. There’s just a bunch of different things. What I like about it is A, its from his experience with hundreds and hundreds of clients, perhaps thousands of clients and he basically says when you tell this to a successful person, that they have this issue, they almost always say yeah. They either deny it or they say, “Yeah, but that’s why I am successful. I’m successful because I see the negative in everything.” He’s starting to build a case against taking these flaws and not trying to fix them. That’s what a lot of folks will try to do because they say, “No, that will make me not who I am. I won’t be as successful.” It’s a fascinating topic of conversation. As he read through a bunch of the behaviors, most of them I was like, “Yeah, I don’t do that, I don’t do that.” And then there’s a few it’s like, “Ha, I may need to ask some people like am I on the border on some of these?”
Mike [05:44]: It’s interesting. It reminds me a little bit in some ways of Gabriel Weinberg had a blog post about how the things you do in terms of your marketing, they will work to a certain extent and then you get to a certain point and beyond that, those things just don’t work for you anymore. I can see the same thing in terms of personal development, growth and being able to lead the business. Some people have that ability to create a company and build it as a startup and then build it to 105, 100 or 1000 employees. There’s other people, they can get to a certain point and then after that a lot of them end up getting forced out of the business or taking a back seat to somebody else just because they really don’t have the skill set, the personality or the capabilities to take business to the next level. I can definitely see myself falling into some of those categories along the way. I think being able to recognize your faults, your inexperience or inflexibility in certain situations is probably a benefit more than a hindrance. Being able to say, “Yeah, I understand that and I will try to avoid that situation,” is a little different than denying it.
Rob [06:47]: Here’s what I like about this book. Again, I’m only a quarter the way through it but already it’s just surfaced a bunch of anti-patterns in terms of behavior and personality. It isn’t necessarily for successful people. Even if you feel like, “I’m not very successful,” it’s still going to bring up a bunch of patterns that you should think through yourself. That’s basically what I’m doing. It doesn’t come off as super, self-help or personal development book but that’s exactly what it is and it’s doing a really good job of it because it’s making me think quite a bit as I’m listening how can I improve in these areas. Those are the kinds of books I enjoy, the ones that make me think about my own behaviors or my own motivations and get me to improve on those.
Mike [07:27]: Awesome. Anything else going on this week?
Rob [07:29]: No. I think we’re just talking about this article here. I ran across it at webprofits.agency and its own their blog. We’ll obviously link it up in the show notes. The article is called ‘The Ultimate Guide to Email Sequences.’ What’s funny is I read through the article and I was like, “This is pretty, you know, this is a nice guy.” I figured we can touch on some points here because it’s a nice overview of all the different types of all email sequences. If you’re not using some of them, you probably should be. These are all handy things to improve conversions, improve attention and that kind of thing. Once we got on the call beforehand, you were saying this is actually webprofits.agency is Sujan Patel’s company. [?] like a growth consultancy agency. Sujan Patel is a speaker at MicroConf starter edition. He’s been a long time colleague of mine. He’s interviewed me several times, a really good guy. It’s kind of funny how small this world is of startups and marketing.
Mike [08:23]: Yes, so let’s dive right in.
Rob [08:25]: All right. The article starts off talking about what is an email sequence. It says, “Let’s define it. An email sequence is a series of emails sent based on pre-set time intervals or trigger based automations or both.” You can either be time-based, where it’s like you’re going to get this email and the next one is three days later and then the next one is five days late or it’s going to be based on an action like not logging into your software for a week or clicking a link in an email or clicking links in the last three emails, etc. The next question is so why create a sequence? The beauty of it is, this is from the article, email sequences are automated, right? When you use both timed and trigger-based emails, messages go out when they are most likely to have an impact. Speaking from my experience, the reason I like email sequences and email mini-courses and I’ve been using these in most of my businesses for going on-it’s more than a decade now, is because they are set it and forget it. Aside from updating content when it gets stale, putting one of these email sequences lifts whatever conversion rate you’re going for. If it lifts it, it just lifts it forever. For every new person that signs up, it’s an evergreen sequence, as opposed to-the alternative is broadcast emails, which are sent out to your whole list all at once. They go out once and then you have to create new content the following week.
Mike [09:44]: One of the pieces of that, that I like the most is the fact that it calls out the fact that you can send out these emails when they’re most likely to have that impact. Lately when I’ve been doing on my Blue Tick demos, one of the things that I like to call out is that there’s a specific email in the sequence that goes out at 7.12 a.m. which I am almost never up at that point. I am up but I’m not sitting down at my desk working. That email goes out at 7.12 and so far that’s the one that converts the most. There’s lots of people that get that particular email and then they come through and they sign up for a demo. It’s just interesting you can use those as different touch points when it’s going to be the most impactful. There’s other situations as well. It’s not just like the broadcast emails. It’s, let’s say, somebody goes to fill out a form and you know that they went there but then they didn’t fill it out or they abandoned their shopping cart. There’s a bunch of products out there that will identify who those people are and then allow you to communicate with them “Hey, you didn’t finish this. Did you forget? Did you get distracted?” There’s lots of reasons why somebody didn’t follow through with something and most of the time it just because they got distracted. It’s not because they went to the page and then decided, “Oh, I actively do not want to do this,” or they see something that makes them turn away from it. It’s more that something else came up that they needed to deal with and it took priority. Being able to nudge them in that direction and essentially bring them back to the table is super helpful.
Rob [11:04]: So now we’re going to take a quick look at the eight different types of sequences that they call out in this post. We’ll go through them fairly quickly due to time constraints but obviously you can refer to the link we’ll have in the show notes if you want to dig in any one of these. They have examples with screenshots and that kind of stuff. What I like about this list is it made me think are we doing all of these with Drip? Are all of them relevant? If not, how do I get that into somebody’s cue to implement this? To dive into the first one is to nurture sequences. This, again coming from the article, it says what it is, “An email message or series of messages designed to help introduce subscriber to your company. These messages may be used to deliver any promised opt-in bonuses, like a coupon code or a lead magnet and they should set subscriber expectations on the frequency and content of the messages they will receive in the future”. I like to think of these as lead nurturing. It’s trying to get someone a little more familiar, to go from straight cold to perhaps a warm or an interested prospect.
Mike [12:01]: The other thing this does is it keeps you top of mind. There’s plenty of newsletters that I’m sure you’ve signed up for as well as I have that you sign up for them and you hear from them once or twice and then you don’t hear from them for like a year or two years. Even if it’s just six months, your expectation was that you were going to be getting content on a more regular basis. When you don’t, the person is essentially restarting a relationship every single time they send an email. Yes, they are going to get some conversions but at the same time, they are not really maintaining those contacts as warm contacts. If you get an email every single week from a particular company, when you run across that particular problem in your business, you’re more likely to turn to them for assistance than somebody who drops in once every three to six months and that’s it.
Rob [12:44]: The second type of sequence is an engagement sequence. Reading from the article, “An engagement sequence aims to deepen the relationship with your subscriber. Once the subscribers have absorbed your nurture messages, engagement sequences can help nudge them to take smaller scale actions that will prime them for future conversion opportunities.” One example is an app called Pocket that attempts to engage its most active users with messages sent annually to the top 1% and 5% readers. Pocket is an app that allows you to read offline annually. I would almost want to do that more often like every month or every quarter or something. Maybe monthly is too much but every quarter. It’s like you’re in top 1% of readers. This is like engagement. It’s a little more personalized than nurturing and it’s people who may already be using your app or you have some type of knowledge of the actions they’re taking. Another example of this is Netflix which offers personalized recommendations with easy calls to action. I get an email every week or two and it’s like, “We just added a show to the Netflix catalogue that you’ll probably like.” There’s always a play button ‘add to my list’. I add a lot of those. They tend to be stuff along the lines of what I’m watching or what the kids are watching and that’s a way that it keeps our cue full thus engaging us further into using their service.
Mike [14:06]: I think the example Pocket, it seems to me a little misleading because that’s probably not-I don’t think that’s the best example that could be used here. That’s solely because it’s only targeting the top 1% or 5% of your subscribers. It feels to me like there’s probably engagement that you could do for all 100% of the people who are on your list. You could make it look more personalized and say, “Hey, we’ve got this for you just as a special gift for our reader. Here’s something you might be interested in,” and you can base that-you can split up your list in three or four different categories and based on things you’ve either tagged them with in the past or they’ve explicitly expressed interest in, you could use those things to engage them but the reality is you’re trying to get them to click on something to make sure they’re still active as a user. I think that’s just really a matter of making sure that you’re delivering stuff to them that they want and that they’re going to be interested in because if they’re not interested in anything you have to offer, you’d really want them off your list.
Rob [15:02]: The next type of sequence is a conversion sequence. Reading from the article, “Conversion sequences are your big guns. You’ve nurtured your subscribers and advanced your relationship with smaller scale engagement suggestions, now you’re ready to ask them to take action usually to purchase something. They give an example here, we did this earlier on with Drip. Earlier on it was a failed experiment. I think our actual sequence wasn’t great but we called it our ready to buy sequence or RTB. We looked at our most engaged users and prospects and we started talking to them about more direct comparisons like us versus MailChimp and here’s what we can actually do with Drip. It was less like high level, topic funnel educational stuff. We started digging into calls to action like, “You should sign up for a Drip trial and here’s why.” Conversion sequence is definitely something you’re going to want in the mix because if you don’t ask for the sale, you’re just so much less likely to get it.
Mike [15:52]: I think a conversion sequence is one of those places where you want to have a little bit more than the fine grain approach in terms of who it is that you’re targeting with this so that you can take those measurements effectively because if, let’s say you target your entire list and 20% of them aren’t well qualifies, it skews your statistics and most of us are driven by those statistics but if you look at that and say, “Oh, well, only 1% of my list converted,” it’s a little different if you look at that and say, “Let me cut off this bottom 80% because most of those people, I know that they’re not going to convert because they’re just not in the right spot, they’re not far enough along. These are the people we should be focused on,” and then pitching it to that 20% and saying, “Okay, what’s our conversion rate here? Do we have this correct,” and trying to figure out is the definition of your target prospects correct in your systems or is it not. That’s where you start looking at those conversion rates. It’s not so that you can’t look at both across the entire spectrum versus who you think are well qualified but I think going after directly those well qualified people is a better approach just because you can get more fine grain and you can identify who those people are and use that to extrapolate where you should channel your future marketing efforts.
Rob [16:58]: The fourth type of sequence is an on-boarding sequence, my favorite, I love these. The first time I launched one with [?]. Forget what it did, I think it tripled, maybe like 5x the trial conversion. It was some insane number but reading from the article, “You’ve got the customer, now don’t leave them hanging. On-boarding messages ensure your new customers understand how to use the product they’ve just purchased so they can get full use and enjoyment out of it right away.” They have a little info-graphic about seven different emails you can send. It’s like the, “Hello, welcome to our app. We can solve your problem. Hey, have you tried. Here’s a copy of an e-book and we do all these stuff.” If you haven’t gone through Drips on-boarding emails in a while, I would recommend signing up and checking it out because we’ve really honed and added a ton of stuff too. I’m pretty sure-I think we even have a video course in it that’s really a well produced video course. There’s just a lot to it. Tons to be set on on-boarding emails but just know of all these sequences, I actually think on-boarding emails may be the first one I dig into when I think about a new app. It’s like how are you going to get people to actually use your software now that they’ve signed up.
Mike [18:02]: What are your thoughts on in terms of the on-boarding process itself, the emails that you’re sending, customizing those specifically based on where the person is at and what sorts of things they’re doing in the app. When you look at an on-boarding sequence like this and you say, “Oh, here’s a general layout of what that looks like,” and then you still go to sign up for an app and they send you through an on-boarding sequence and I just did this recently with a CRM that I signed up for. I was getting emails saying, “Hey, by now you should have done this,” and it was like four or five emails into the trial for it and I’m like, “Yeah, I still haven’t done stuff too so why are you sending me stuff for like step four and five? It does not make sense here.” I did notice it. It stuck out in my mind that they’re sending me on-boarding emails and that’s great but I’m not even there. You really need to be pushing me towards getting step two done.
Rob [18:50]: It sounds like they just had theirs in some basic auto responder. It didn’t have any status of what you were up to. That’s one of the early things we build into Drip is since we have liquid templeting, there are on-boarding emails basically say, “If you have completed this step,” and I think we do it by tag, “If your tags include X, then display this messages otherwise display this other one.” We never get ahead of the steps. If you’ve done a step, you won’t get an email asking you to do that step again. There’re different ways to handle that, like I said, we use tags and liquid but with workflows, now you could do it probably even more clearly than that because you could just have the [?] stands right in the workflows. If you don’t have some type of intelligence, you need to be really vague. If you’re going to use a MailChimp auto responder for this, then you have to waffle around the issue. You can’t say you have or have not done this. You just need to be more broad with it or think about moving to a platform that has some type of automation so that you can be hat specific because you’re definitely going to engage people more and get better results if you are really specific with what they have and have not done yet. The fifth type of sequence is an abandoned cart recovery sequence and reading from the article, “A would-be buyer has left something in your shopping cart but left without purchasing. An abandoned cart recovery sequence may help bring them back.” They have an example from Shopify and of course I think of [?] when I read this because that’s what they started as, was abandoned cart recovery. There’re several apps out there that do it or you could do it. There’s people that use Drip or use MailChimp or whatever to do it. I guess you need some automation in order to do this well. I got abandoned cart sequence within the last week from a website that sells watches. I put something in there and I was thinking about it and I got distracted and it sent me a 10% coupon in like a day or two later and a couple of days later sent me a 15% off and I was like, “You know, I’m going to see if they send me 20%.” They never did but then I went back and used the 15% and it actually brought me back. I was on the fence about buying the watch but at 15% cheaper, it totally made sense. These things, not just anecdotally, these things really do a pretty good job. These are going to be emails that over time are going to make you a lot of money.
Mike [20:52]: Another thing you can do with these types of things, even though it’s not like an abandoned cart recover sequence, you can also use it for things like when somebody goes to click on a link inside of an email and you know that they’ve done that, maybe you have automation in place where if they click on the link then it tags them. I set this up in Drip for when people are going to the Blue Tick website and it’s asking for an invite. When they put in their email address, it flips them over to another page and if they do not fill out that form within 10 minutes, it starts them into a Drip sequence that sends them emails to get them back and fill out that form. You don’t have to limit this just to abandoned carts. You can do it for other key pieces of your sales process to get people to take that next step because obviously if they don’t take that next step, then they’re not going to advance in your sales process. You can use these types of automations to get them to that, whether it’s actually going through and putting their credit card information or even just filling out a survey request or form or giving you more information that you need to help advance them.
Rob [21:50]: This isn’t just for carts. Imagine you have a two step signing process for your SaaS App where the first step is your email and your password and the second step is credit card. This is what we do with Drip. If you make it through the first step, you essentially are abandoning a cart. If you leave and we have a sequence tied to that and made us have had good results, not just for selling physical goods. Our sixth type of sequence is a renewal sequence and reading from the article, “Email list subscribers become disengaged for any number of reasons no matter how many nurturing and engagement sequences you have in place. Maybe their inboxes are flooded or maybe they’re no longer interested in what you’re selling. In any case, a renewal sequence, also known as a re-engagement sequence, is your last effort to bring them back into the fold.” You could see this working if you’re selling physical goods but even with a SaaS App, if someone hasn’t logged in, in 10, 20 or 30 days depending on how often they should be logging in based on your knowledge of successful customers, this is a good way to do it. It doesn’t just have to be a ‘hey come back’, it can be when you start. Think about making it more valuable to them like a weekly summary of stats or a weekly summary of all the benefits that they’ve gotten out of your app that people could unsubscribe from of course. But if they get that kind of a default when they sign up, not only are you reinforcing in their mind all the value they’re getting out of it but this can keep them engaged if they would be normally apt to wonder off.
Mike [23:13]: This reminds me of analytics applications where you’re connected to some of your accounts and they give you daily or weekly stats on how some of your different tools are doing or how some of your different lead automations are going. For example I think KickoffLabs does this. When a new lead comes in, you can have them send you an email that gives you a summary of all the leads that came in the previous day. It helps them to say, “Hey, look, we’re still providing value to you, even though you haven’t logged in, like here’s the value that you’ve gotten out of this product.” That’s a good way to help remind people that not only do they have that tool around but it’s doing things for them and working for them and it’s a good reason for them to not cancel. You can also use them, as you said, to help bring people back if you notice that they haven’t logged in for a while or they haven’t taken certain activities and if those activities are directly tied to the value that they would get out of the product and they’re not doing them, then you can use those to re-engage those people, bring them back in to help get them moving. It’s a secondary step, if they don’t do those, then you can send them other things to help bring them back and recover them as a customer because they’re probably on their way out at that point especially if they’re not doing those key things they need to be doing to get value.
Rob [24:22]: Seventh type of sequence is an event sequence. Reading from the article it says, “Like a conversion sequence, an event sequence aims to encourage subscriber action. In this case, however, that action is attendance at an event for example a live in-person meet up or an online webinar. Events sequences rely on both timed messages and trigger-based emails for example people who register to attend the event but didn’t show up.”
Mike [24:48]: Some of the things that come to mind for this is if you have somebody who signs up for a meeting with you or you’ve register for a meeting with them, sending those follow-up emails, whether it’s 10 minutes before and then like a several hours before, this is a friendly reminder to them that, “Hey, we’ve got this call scheduled.” It helps cut down on the cancellations and no-shows but you can also use this in events or situations where you’ve got a sale going on where it’s going to end at Thursday at midnight, for example. You can time those emails to be sent out two days or one day in advance and then a couple of hours before things. We do this for MicroConf. We’ve done this for years that lead up to the deadline for those things where once that deadline passes, the price will go up, for example. That’s very effective. You can get people who are on the fence or just dropped off the radar, they’ll say, “Oh, I’ll get to it later,” and they forget all about it and it’s 3 O’clock in the afternoon and they get a reminder email about it, “Oh shoot, I’ve got to go do that because otherwise this will go away.” There’s that time sensitivity to it that can help drive the traffic in the sales.
Rob [25:50]: Our eighth and final type of sequence is called a follow-up sequence. Reading from the article, “Follow-up sequences are similar to the on-boarding sequence described above but where on-boarding messages are intended for new product users, follow-up sequences should be used whenever customers complete an action such as finishing an online course or purchasing a product. The goal of this sequence can include things that re-enforcing information learned, to keep of top mind awareness, driving referral or affiliate sales, reiterating sales messages, sharing details on the next event, etc.”
Mike [26:20]: These are kind of those transactional emails that you get for accomplishing certain tasks within different pieces of software. One thing I wondered about is the logistics of managing some of these because some of the things that people might do are so desperate. Maybe you have some insight on this. If you have, let’s say five different things that you want somebody to do in their app, if you have these things in place, do you send those five after every single one or should you wait a little while to potentially put yourself in a position where you can aggregate them and say, “Hey, you did this, this and this,” and you put it all in one email as opposed to five separate ones.
Rob [26:53]: I think it depends on how close together those things might happen because sending someone five emails in a day or two days is going to be irritating. I would definitely aggregate there. If these things are going to happen once a week or in most cases they’re going to be a week apart, then having more touch points is probably good. Those are the eight types of email sequences. The funny part is the latter half of this article is about what to look for in an email provider and I had already chosen this article and linked to it where we were going to go through it and then I read this section and I was thinking, “Oh-Oh, what if they like, totally talk about a competitor, they don’t mention Drip or something,” but as it turns out, they have MailChimp, Drip and Vero and the author actually speaks really highly of Drip and says it’s the one that they use. When I see screenshots later on, it actually shows all the Drip screens of doing automation, tags, short codes and that kind of stuff. It’s an article that’s supporting Drip but that has nothing to do with what we’re talking about in the podcast. I just found the content in this article super helpful. I wanted to share it with you, our listener.
Mike [27:57]: To recap the different types of sequences are: nurture sequences, engagement sequences, conversion sequences, on-boarding sequences-I’m saying sequences way too much here-abandoned carts, renewals, events and follow-up sequences. If you have a question for us, you can call it into our voicemail at 1-888-801-9690 or you can e-mail it to us at email@example.com. Our theme music is an excerpt from ‘We’re Out of Control’ by MoOt, used under creative comments. Subscribe to us on iTunes by searching for startups and visit startupsfortherestofus.com for a full transcript of each episode. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.