In this episode of Startups For The Rest Of Us, Rob takes over the show and answers a number of listener questions. Topics include launching a book and dealing with two sided market places.
Items mentioned in this episode:
Rob: In this episode of Startups For The Rest Of Us, I complete my coup to take over the podcast. I kicked Mike off and I’m going to be answering listener questions on my own. This is Startups For The Rest Of Us Episode 360. Welcome to Startups For The Rest Of Us, the podcast that helps developers, designers, and entrepreneurs be awesome at building, launching, and growing software products, whether you’ve built your first product or you’re just thinking about it.
I’m Rob and I’m here to share my experiences to help you avoid the same mistakes we’ve made. This is a milestone in Startups For The Rest Of Us history. Funny thing happened, as I was planning the podcast this week, I actually wasn’t able to make our normally scheduled time, nor was I able to make several other times that Mike tried to meet up with me to record the podcast. As a result, I proposed that I find a guest. I contacted a couple of guests and neither of them could make it this week. Frankly, the week became pretty crazy. There’s some stuff going on on the personal side that I’m sure we’ll talk about in future episodes as they unfold, but suffice to say it was me basically running from work to home, back to work, back to home, and didn’t check email for a few days.
Before I knew it, it was Friday morning and poor Josh, our editor, was expecting a podcast recording a few days before that. Here I sit with about an hour to put out a podcast episode and I wanted to go through listener questions. I always have thoughts and opinions on the questions that come through and I have done a few solo episodes over on the podcast I do with my wife, zenfounder.com. I figured I’d give it a shot for Startups For The Rest Of Us as well, it will be an interesting experiment. We’ll go through basically our entire backlog, I think we only have four, maybe five for today. I want to talk through the questions and comments, and we have a voice mail as well, and then lend my thoughts on those.
Our first email comes in from someone who prefers to remain anonymous. The subject line is, “THANK YOU. Finally launched, first 24 hours were an awesome success.” He says, “I’ve been to several MicroConfs, three of the last four years in the US, and I’ve been a long time listener of the show since Spring of 2013. After a few different projects and non-starters, last October, I re-focused and went back to what I’m good at, video based, on-demand training. Today, I concluded a 24 hour special launch offer to my subscribers. My first ever launch, and first time taking payments other than as a contractor. After my 24 hour email launch, I wound up with over $100,000 in sales. This was a lot of work and a lot of fun getting ready for launch, including dealing with Hurricane Irma. I wanted to express thanks to you guys for everything you’ve done for micropreneurs like me. I just put the wannapreneur out to pasture. Cheers.”
As usual, we love success stories like this, and this is why Mike and I started the podcast while we run the conference and really why we have Founder Cafe, our online membership site, foundercafe.com. This is the part about making a difference. It’s always interesting to me. I haven’t tended to start companies to make a difference, I’ve tended to start companies to serve a business purpose, to serve a need, and to make money. Whereas the blog, the podcast, the conference, Founder Cafe, just everything, the book, everything that I create, my content, that’s to actually make a difference. I know we make some money from it, but I’ve in my life made ten times more money from actually building software startups, products, and websites for that matter, than I have putting content out.
I know some people want to start companies to make a difference, there’s this Steve Jobs ‘I want to put a dent in the universe’ or you see a lot of folks in Silicon Valley saying they want to change the world with their startup. Personally, that has never been my aspiration. Yet, I have wanted to change the world in some fort or fashion. The fact that the podcast and MicroConf helped this person get to $100,000 in sales in the first 24 hours of launching, and obviously they built up to that. They had a subscriber list, this isn’t some cinderella story of them just putting something out and it’s selling $100,000 in 24 hours. They put in a ton of work, probably took a few years of building a list. I got to say, that’s the way to start the stair step. Congratulations.
Our next email is a question about launching a book as part of the stair step approach. It’s from Arthur Johnson and he says, “Hey Mike and Rob, it was pretty funny for me when you released Episode 350 featuring a listener question about launching books the exact same day I launched my picture book for kids. It’s called The ABCs of Programming. Like Dan, the author of the question, also thought writing a book was the best way to get started on the stair step approach. It’s a simple product, and unlike a SaaS or one-time software, you don’t get bogged down in the code. This has let me focus on learning process, marketing, and advertising. Since both of you have books, do either of you have any tips on launching a book, specifically if you’re doing it at step one of the stair step approach? Thanks, Arthur.”
I think books are a fantastic way to get started on this precisely for the reason that he said. You don’t get bogged down on the code, you also don’t get bogged down in support, and bugs, and all the stuff that goes along with the complexity of code. In addition, people buy more books than they buy software. I buy one or two books a week probably, either physical or audio, and I read most of them. Most people don’t. A lot of people buy a lot of books with the aspiration that they’re going to read them and consume the content eventually and they don’t, whereas people less often buy software out of this excitement to learn something. They typically buy it only when they have an actual task to accomplish.
Something like the ABCs of Programming or anything that’s going to teach my kids programming or make them better at something, entrepreneurship, learning how to manage money, I’m all in on these types of things, especially if it’s written by someone who is putting it on Indiegogo, KickStarter, or someone who I can tell has a lot of love and care for that thing; it’s not just some big publisher putting a book out, but it’s actually an individual who probably has kids themselves for example.
Yes, I think this is a very good idea if you’re thinking about it. I would go to Kickstarter myself, that would be the first thing. There’s a network effect there, there’s a lot of people on there, a lot of them have kids. It’s just something that whether you’re launching a book to kids or not, it’s probably beside the point, but you get the idea here. I’m on Kickstarter a couple of times a week and I’m looking for projects that are interesting and relevant to me. If it can teach me a new skill or teach my kids a new skill, or is kind of a new and unique thinking around a gadget, that’s the kind of approach that I personally would take.
Obviously, if you have your own audience, there’s another approach there. It doesn’t sound like you do, but that’s where you get that network effect from Kickstarter. It’s pretty easy to promote and you’re basically pre-selling, so as long as you have the cover and a few pages, you don’t even have to have printed the thing, you have several months after that to go get it printed. You can go to one of the print houses that are in China that will print hard cover books and you can ship them back here.
Whereas if you pre-launch on your website, there tends to be a little more skepticism about whether you’re actually going to deliver it. I know there are some Kickstarter projects that have never been delivered, but it’s more often than not, especially the high profile ones, they’re gonna deliver something eventually. There’s that confidence level. When I back something on Kickstarter, I do assume that eventually it’s going to come out one way or another, even though Kickstarter does say that it is not a store.
I’m trying to think—I’ve backed probably 150 projects, I have to look at the exact number. I don’t know if there’s one that I’ve never received, there is one that I received probably two years, two and a half years after it was supposed to arrive, and it came just like two weeks ago. I was very surprised by that. But a lot of things like the books, the author, it tends to be a passion project and they tend to be mostly done with the book at least in writing it and getting part of the art done, there’s not a ton of risk in that not getting done unless someone just totally flakes on it.
All that to say, I think launching a book, I would go for that. A Kickstarter thing to get the network effect, and then beyond that of course you’re going to put it on Amazon. I even debate the amount of effort to set up a solo landing page these days for a book like this. I probably always would personally, especially you can get the square space theme or WordPress theme, gets them up there with the gum road purchase button but the advantage of having channels like Amazon or Kickstarter I think is a big deal.
In addition, since it’s called The ABCs of Programming, I might even think about a little bit of Amazon SEO where The ABCs of Programming for Kids is going to get you to rank for that term ‘programming for kids’ because I know that I’ve searched that title, that phrase, probably ten times in the past year just looking for different programming books for kids because I want to teach my kids how to program, I want them to learn. You don’t have to go too far down that road, but it is interesting to think about when you’re one of these big, essentially it’s a search engine.
Google is the largest engine, YouTube is the second largest, and at one time Yahoo! was third and I’m not sure that’s the case anymore. Amazon’s got to be up there in terms of search traffic, and certainly for commerce search traffic, I can’t imagine it’s not number one. Then there’s app stores as well, we’ve talked about the Android App Store, it’s the Google PlayStore now, the iOS App Store, and all those things. These are all search engines where you can get in the line of sight of search traffic. If you are just a little bit clever or a little bit deliberate about thinking through some keywords that people might specifically be searching for—and you don’t want to jack up the title of your book of course—if you think Programming For Kids, and that actually works in this title pretty well, that’s obviously something I would think about as well. I hope that helps, Arthur. Thanks for your question.
Our next question is a voice mail.
Michael: Hey Rob and Mike, Michael Needle here. I’m currently launching [alltheguides.com 00:10:02], an online platform that innovates on the current process for booking and outdoor adventure guides. Before I get to my question, I want to say that I love, love, love the show, thank you guys for all the insights you provide. I found the show a few months ago and I’ve basically gone through all the episodes available on iTunes, really been helpful so far.
In Episode 262, 13 Signs You Should Kill Your Idea, one of the signs is that you’re building a two-sided market, which is exactly what I’m doing. Knowing how difficult this could be, what hints or suggestions do you have for someone who’s committed to doing this exact thing? Any best practices you’re finding in product-market fit, testing traction channels for both sides at the same time which is generally building this type of SaaS app. Thanks in advance for taking the time on this question and thank you again, so much, for producing the show.
Rob: This is a good question. I’m glad that you asked this. There’s a lot of questions about two-sided marketplaces that come through. They are one of those things that once you have a network effect, they’re very powerful, but they’re so hard to get started especially if you’re not raising funding, very, very difficult to pull off.
Two-sided marketplaces, the key is that you have to focus on one side of the market. One side of the market is going to flock to your site once you have the other side and you need to figure out which side to get first. For example, you look at GroupOn, two-sided marketplace. They had to get a bunch of retailers on one side and then there are consumers on the other. Zero consumers will come to that sight until you have some deals, some retail deals. You can promise them deals, you can probably start building a mailing list, but what you really need to do is you need to go out first and you need to get enough retailers on the site that you can start bringing consumers to it.
Once you get a big swath of consumers, you get that snowball going, it’s so much easier to recruit the retailers. You do a little on one side, just enough to get the other side to snowball and avalanche. Once that avalanches, then the second side will be a piece of cake.
In your case, you’re looking for both. Guides, and you’re looking for people looking for outdoor adventures. The strategy I would take is I would—you have even a third channel because this is geographical. It’s not like eBay where there are buyers and there are sellers and they can be anywhere in the world because of the postal service, you have guides and you have consumers. Much like Uber or Lyft, you also have a geographic thing because they need to be together in the same place.
The first thing I would do is geographically limit this and I would pick some type of tourist place, look at them. Number one outdoor adventure spot in the United States. I don’t know if that’s going to be in Colorado, if it’s in California somewhere, but pick that and pick a 40 mile radius or one town and make it work there.
This is what Travis and his co-founder did with Uber. I only keep bringing Uber up because it’s a parallel story of what you need to do to what they did, and they did only black cars, they did only San Francisco. At the start, I’m pretty sure it was one or two of them literally driving black cars, they rented black cars and they were driving themselves just to figure out if this thing would work, and then they started recruiting the black cars. You needed enough black cars that then you could recruit the other side of the deal, the consumers in essence. And then when you had a bunch of consumers, you can get black cars automatically because the black cars want the money. It’s like this back and forth.
For you, I would do the same thing. I would pick a small geography, I would get 10 guides or 20 guides on the platform and they’re going to be the people who are willing to take a flyer on you. I was going to say you can give them a special deal but I don’t even know if you need to, I think when you say that you’re gonna be Uber for outdoor adventure, some people will think that’s cool and some people won’t.
Maybe you talk to five or ten guides. For every one you get to sign up, that’s okay, this is the hustle. You talk to 100 guides, you get 10 or 20 on the platform, then you’re going to go out and you’re going to just blanket that area and you’re going to blanket that internet with whatever you can do, whether it’s Facebook ads, Google Ads, whether it’s retargeting, whether it’s blog posts, whether it’s posting in forums. That’s the online stuff.
And then the offline stuff, assuming people living in that area also need it. I don’t know if everyone’s just flying into town, then offline won’t actually be that helpful. Where are people going to be located locally when they need a guide, are they going to be in REI? Is there a bulletin board in that REI? You can post a flyer or you can post your flyers on the counter at a local outdoor place, or you can make a deal with five of the outfitter shops that they will pitch you.
I don’t know the system, maybe you’re in direct competition with the outfitters and that doesn’t work but you get the idea. It’s like think locally, where would someone be located when they’re looking for this or when they’re thinking about it? There might not be a ton of local opportunities, maybe it’s all online. You got to try both to know what’s going to work and what’s not.
To summarize, I would geographically limit yourself and then I would focus on one side first and that’s going to be really, really hard to get and get just enough that it’s minimally viable, and then I would launch on the other side. You’re trying to bring in all the consumers to basically book the guides that you’ve signed up. You’re taking a small percentage of that, which is the challenge of this thing. Until you get to thousands and thousands of bookings, taking your 10%, 20%, 30% fee, this isn’t going to amount to much. You are definitely going to have a long road ahead of you, but I do wish you good luck on your journey.
Our next question comes from Chris Portier. The subject line is Pet Projects and Learning. He says, “Hey guys, first off, love the show. Been listening for about three to four weeks now on my commute to work, it’s amazing, props to you guys. I work in marketing for a Fortune 50 company and I love what I do, but it isn’t quite aligned with what I want long term. I love learning and I learn best when I have an idea, a theory, or a best practice to put to test in an application. I find it hard to find something that I can do on my own. I really want to learn and work my way up the project ladder to something that is sustainable/impactful. What things could I do/steps could I take to do smaller scale projects where I could take my learnings and put them into practice? Thanks guys. For reference, these are things like best practices, video techniques, targeting techniques, data analysis, and pretty much a little bit of every gospel of marketing.”
I think, Chris, you haven’t heard me talk about the stair step approach to bootstrapping yet and I’m not going to go through it here because it’s like a drinking game at this point, every time I talk about stair stepping, everybody takes a shot. I would recommend a couple things that one, you go search Google for the stair step approach to bootstrapping. You should find a blogpost on my blog, softwarebyrob.com, as well as a prior, at least a couple prior episodes, of Startups For The Rest Of Us. Listen through that and it should give you ideas about how to take something that you can do and launch something.
Whether it’s a book or whether it’s a WordPress plugin or whether it’s a video course, it’s something small. One time sale, typically a single traffic channel, that single traffic channel might be SEO, it might be people finding you in Amazon, it might be you have a small email list even at 500 or 1,000 people, and you’re not going to get rich off this but you’re going to learn so much. You’re going to learn how to make money on a project or a product like you’ve never done before. When you’re used to trading dollars for hours, that first dollar that comes to you that is from something that you made and just made a copy of is incredible, it is life changing. I say that with no exaggeration. It changed my life.
When I see people email in about their first sale, you can tell that it is life changing even if you only make $500 from this first product, it is incredible. The confidence that gives you, the experience you get, you learn what’s hard and what’s not, and you learn what you like to do and what you don’t. Maybe you learn this isn’t for you at all and you just want to be a higher paid, salaried worker, or you want to be a higher paid consultant. That’s a good lesson to learn. It’s a good thing to know instead of sitting there for years pining away thinking that the entrepreneurial life is for you. Odds are, I think once you make the money, you’re going to realize boy, I want to do this again and again and again.
That’s the stair step approach, it’s stepping up from one thing to the next, to the next, and doing what you love. If you’re motivated by learning long term, entrepreneurship is for you. Thanks for the question, Chris. I hope that’s helpful.
My last question for the day is a fun one and it’s from Brad. He says, “I hope you’re well. I’m taking a stab in the dark, I’m writing a blog post for my website on what it takes to be a successful podcaster. I was hoping you’d take a few minutes to add your comments.” He has a forum and I may or may not look at it, but I just thought it was an interesting question.
We do get this now and again of how do you launch a podcast, how have you guys become successful, how do you handle this, how do you handle that? I think the bottom line that I’ve realized is that you can hack initial growth of a podcast, I see folks doing this, I think it’s good, I think it’s basically kind of like doing SEO for iTunes in essence. You launch your podcast, you email your list, you get everybody to download it, and then you catapult to the top on New & Noteworthy. And then you got to build momentum from there.
That’s a great way to launch. That’s a tactic. What I’ve learned and realized through my experience and the experience of watching other people launch a great fanfare and some of whom have stuck around and some haven’t, is that it’s about showing up every week or twice a week or three times a week. It’s about showing up. It’s about relentless execution, which is a phrase that I use often. I don’t know any other way to build a large podcast audience other than to put in the time. You look at the largest podcast in the world, you look at Serial, you look at This American Life, you look at StartUp and The Gimlet Shows. You look at the Tim Ferriss Show.
You look at whoever else, Stacking Benjamins, they put out either a show a week, some put up three shows a week, but they put in time. You know that although Tim Ferriss is the four-hour workweek guy, you know he’s spending a ton of time prepping those guests, booking guests, I know he has people helping him do that for sure. He ships a show or two every week. He didn’t just rest on his laurels and his name and ship a podcast and then not record again. There is an aspect of being entertaining, providing value, and all that stuff. Yes, table stakes. You look at This American Life, amazingly entertaining.
Also, hundreds and hundreds of person hours per episode, but they show up. They ship an episode every week. I think that would be the first takeaway, don’t think that you can do it sporadically, you can do it as you feel like it. At this point, shipping weekly is now table stakes. I think two or three times a week is going to be even better, you’re going to build the audience faster.
The other thing that you should think about is there are really only three values or three pockets of value you can get from a podcast. One is entertainment, two is relationship—it’s a one sided relationship but there is a relationship. The third is tactics, how to. Let’s cover each of those a little more in depth.
You think about entertainment, this is This American Life. That’s a great example, Serial as well. You don’t listen to it because necessarily you have a relationship with anyone in the show or you feel the people in the stories on a long term, ongoing basis. Maybe you might listen to this podcast, Startups For The Rest Of Us, you might listen to Jordan and Brian on Bootstrapped Web. You’re following along on the story, it’s the journey of acquiring HitTail and selling it and launching Drip and being acquired by Leadpages. You listen to Mike go through Audit Shark and through Bluetick and his launch. Over time, there’s a narrative. Again, same with Bootstrapped Web, you follow along on their journeys of launching things. That’s the relationship side of it.
There’s a little bit of entertainment but it’s mostly because you like the people. That’s not how I feel with This American Life, although Ira Glass is obviously an amazing talent. I don’t necessarily listen to it because he’s the host. If they still put out the same quality show and someone else was hosting it, I would listen to it. I’m not sure that I would with Bootstrapped Web because I know the people, same thing with The Art Of Product Podcast. It’s Ben Orenstein and Derrick Reimer who’s my co-founder of Drip. Same thing, it’s their journey and you’re following along as they’re launching and building products.
I don’t want to get confusing here. What I’m saying is that the entertainment piece—I can listen to a comedy podcast, I can listen to a podcast about roleplaying games, and it’s just fun. It’s something to take my mind off of real life, in essence. That’s one thing you can do. If you’re good at that, do that.
The second one is the relationship and that’s building up a long term narrative that people really want to hear. You maybe could say a little bit that Serial is like that, although it’s more the story that you get tied to. Obviously, Sarah Koenig, the host, again if suddenly next season she was not the host, I would still listen to Serial because it’s a good show. For me, that, again, is more about entertainment.
The relationships are when you really start bonding with the people and their stories. If you met them in person, you would feel like you knew them. You can tell, man, I want to be this person’s friend, or maybe I don’t want to be this person’s friend but they’re interesting to listen to. I think sometimes folks listen to Marc Maron which is the WTF Podcast. There’s a bit of entertainment there.
There’s also the ongoing relationship of what is Marc going to do next. If you’ve listened to him for years, you’ve seen his whole journey from the depths of being an interviewer on a small podcast to having his own TV shows come out and really launching himself into fame. There’s a relationship aspect. That’s where the entrepreneur journey that’s going to take years is designed pretty well for that.
The third is the tactical piece. I think tactical can get you started, it’s what gets an initial audience going if you have no name because just coming onto a podcast and starting to tell your story isn’t that interesting, typically, especially if you’re just getting started and you don’t know what you’re doing. A lot of times, something tactical can be there to help people justify listening to it.
When I say you don’t know what you’re doing when you’re just getting started, you certainly know something. If you’re doing anything, you can talk about the experiments you did that week with SEO or AdWords, and then you can put out a podcast about here’s how I failed at AdWords. That becomes something that people can learn from.
Long term, this is feedback we’ve gotten about this podcast, if you listen to 350 episodes of this show, the tactics at a certain point aren’t that helpful anymore because you’ve gotten so far past where tactics are helpful, if that makes sense. I know that for me, a few years into my entrepreneurial journey, most of the podcasts I listen to that talk about five ways to do this, ten ways to do that, had very little value, had tips here and there, and I would always note them down. They had so much value upfront when I was just learning.
When you’re a beginner, you’re just thirsting for knowledge and that would help me, and I’d make notes, and then I’d go in and I’d implement him and I’d see what worked and what didn’t. As time goes on, more of the tactics come from your peers, from mastermind groups, from in depth conversations with friends and colleagues from attending conferences like MicroConf or BOS and getting new ideas from a really crafted one-hour presentation, from trying things on your own, and honestly still from podcasts. I don’t want to downplay that, that even though we put out 350 episodes or even though Conversion Cast has 100 episodes or whatever, trying to think of some other—I used to listen to some SEO podcasts. I still would pick things up because things do change and people try and do interesting things.
I think having a mix of probably two of the three that I just named which are entertainment and the relationship which is kind of long term narrative, and tactics. Having two of those three, you can pick any two, frankly, I think is a good combination to have. Then, just relentlessly executing on it and shipping every week. You’re going to start out pretty crappy, as Ira Glass says, it’s hard to get started creating any type of art because your taste is up here and your ability to produce that art is way down here.
It’s painful to hear yourself write a song or play music or produce a podcast or build a business or write copy or speak on stage because you know what it means to be good at any of those things and you’re going to suck at it for a long time, but you have to suck at it over and over until you get better. Eventually, you will see yourself on stage or you will listen to a podcast episode, or you will look at copy that you wrote six months ago and you will think to yourself that is badass, I’m good at this now.
That’s what relentless execution gets you; it’s showing up everyday and it’s doing shit that scares you.
I’m going to wrap up this episode. I think it’s funny, I don’t actually know if Mike’s going to listen to this, I don’t know if he listens to the show after we record it. He may never know unless you email and taunt him or post a comment, don’t taunt him I’m just kidding. You should totally let us know if this was an interesting format at all or if you feel like eh, we should have two people, I don’t know, I’m just curious. Now and again, it’s not like we’re going to plan to start doing a solo podcast episode, it really, truly was an emergency thing and I wanted to have new content out for you guys next Tuesday but would be interested to hear your thoughts.
You can email us at email@example.com, post a comment on the website at startupsfortherestofus.com. This is Episode 360. You can also call our voicemail number at 888-801-9690. Our theme music is an excerpt from a song called We’re Outta Control by MoOt who was offered up under the Creative Commons license.
It’s actually interesting, go to YouTube and search We’re Outta Control by MoOt and you can hear the whole song, I’m sure they’re in Spotify as well. It’s kind of a trip when you hear it because you’ll hear the intro which is the part that we use. And then when he starts singing the verse, it’s so weird for it to continue and not to fade out after hearing our version hundreds and hundreds of times.
If you’re not subscribed to this podcast, you can search in iTunes or Stitcher, Down Cast, and search for Startups. We’re typically in the Top 3 or 4. You can get a full transcript of each episode at startupsfortherestofus.com.
Thank you for listening and I will see you next time.
In this episode of Startups For The Rest Of Us, Rob and Mike answer a number of listener questions including launching books, compensation for a side project, and starting a product with a lot of runway.
Items mentioned in this episode:
Rob: In this episode of Startups For The Rest Of Us, Mike and I talk about launching books, compensation for a side project, starting a SaaS app with a lot of runway and more listener questions. This is Startups For The Rest Of Us episode 350. 350 episodes, Mike.
Mike: Wow. It didn’t even occur to me that this was 350.
Rob: It’s crazy. That’s almost seven years because we tend to release one a week.
Mike: I think it’s more than seven years. Because we started in 2010, didn’t we?
Rob: Yes, you’re right. It was late March of 2010.
Mike: So this is eight years?
Rob: No, because it’s 2017. It’s July 2017.
Mike: Oh yeah, you’re right.
Rob: I was trying to divide 350 by 52 and it’s only like 6.7, but you’re right. I don’t know how the numbering worked out. It’s weird.
Mike: I think it’s because there was a time for six months or so where we were going every other week for a while. That’s why it doesn’t quite work out.
Rob: Really? That wasn’t at the start, was it in the middle?
Mike: Yeah. It was probably a year into it or six months into it, something like that.
Rob: Okay, we dropped down because we had hundreds of listeners and it was like why are we doing this every week? Was that why we did it?
Mike: No. I think it was because we were trying to figure out whether or not it would impact growth and we had other things going on. We were just trying to figure out, “Okay, does it really matter?” And then, we went back and looked at the stats and said, “Hey, publishing once a week actually makes a huge difference.”
Rob: That’s right and we also, I remember early on, we had a tough time coming up with content every week. Remember we got like 20 something episodes in and we’re like, “Alright, that’s all we have to say. We’re done.”
Mike: We had no idea what we were going to talk about next. Of course, we were also a lot more careful about what we were doing, now we just shoot from the hips. It’s like yeah, whatever.
Rob: Welcome to Startups For The Rest Of US, the podcast that helps developers, designers, and entrepreneurs be awesome at building, launching and growing software products. Whether you’ve built your first product or you’re just thinking about it. I’m Rob.
Mike: And I’m Mike.
Rob: We’re here to share our experiences to help you avoid the same mistakes we’ve made. What’s the word this week, sir?
Mike: I’m hoping that I can get through this entire podcast episode without touching the mute button and then touching my face or mouth in any way, shape, or form because our cat started chewing on stuff including cables and chewed through a couple of cables so I’m like, “I don’t want it chewing through my headphones.” So I sprayed them and you run into at least three situations over the past few weeks, used my headphones, where I touched it and then I wipe my mouth or something like that. And let me tell you that anti-cat chewing on stuff tastes god awful. It’s the worst thing in the world and it doesn’t come off your hands.
Rob: Oh, I bet. There was something called Bitter Orange or Bitter Apple that my mom used to use because we had several dogs for that kind of stuff and I got it on my mouth once, it was horrendous. And yeah, your soap doesn’t take it off. That’s the point. It’s really, really hard to get off. You’ve been working on a video series here. What are you? Seven or eight days into this?
Mike: The ninth one got published this morning so the 10th will go out tomorrow. I’m doing an ask me anything for that one. By the time this airs, that’ll be over.
Rob: Cool. It’s the 21 days before your SaaS launch. If people head to singlefounder.com, they can sign up to hear more about it. I’ve watched every one of the videos although many of them at 1.7 or 1.8 speed, I’ll admit, but it’s been cool to follow along. I’m glad you’re doing this.
Mike: Cool. I’m publishing a new blogpost today probably that’s basically just going to open it up. Previously, I just had it available for the people on my mailing list but I’ve got enough comments and feedback and stuff that I think it might be beneficial to put it out there so that even if you’re not on the mailing list, if you just want to head over to the site and click on the videos and stuff, you can watch or barrel through them if you want to catch up. Yeah, I’ll be doing that today.
Rob: One thing you do that I had a question about is in every episode, you hold a bottle of whiskey and you talk a little bit about it for 30 seconds then you take a sip of it and then you go into what you did that day but I was trying to do loose math. I’m not that great at math, Mike, but if you’re doing 21 days and you hold up a different whiskey bottle, do you actually have 21 bottles of whiskey?
Mike: Do you want the honest answer to that question?
Rob: The honest answer, Mike.
Mike: There’s technicalities here. I probably have closer to 30 or 35, but in all fairness, somebody came over and dropped off a 12 pack of nips of Fireball at one point. If you include that, it’s a little higher than it should be.
Rob: I don’t count Fireball as whiskey, I’m sorry.
Mike: I don’t either. I was really torn about whether I’m even going to show Fireball. I think I might put several whiskeys together and be like this one’s terrible, and then drink it.
Rob: I thought it was funny. One of the best parts is you did Crown one day and then the next day you did the maple flavored or something and then you were like, “Ugh! This is god awful.” Like the look on your face was hilarious. I think you offended some people with that comment.
Mike: I don’t care. I’m sorry but it is a very fake maple taste. There are Maple whiskeys out there that you can get that actually have maple syrup in them but they tend to be classified more as a liquor than as whiskey just because of the content which there is technicalities there, I get it, but there’s another one called Sortilege, I’m not sure exactly how to pronounce it but that’s a liquor and it’s got whiskey and real maple syrup in it. It’s actually quite good. But the Maple Crown Royal is just awful.
I actually had somebody’s comment to me like thanks for turning me away from that because they were going to try it. In terms of full bottles of whiskey, I have 18 or 19 full sized bottles.
Rob: You’re going to have to run out last couple of days?
Mike: Yeah. Sometime between now and next week, I’ll probably go out and pick up a couple of extra bottles just so I’m not repeating some things.
Rob: That’s interesting because I drink a lot of whiskey but at any given time, I have maybe two or three bottle in the house and then as I finish, I’ll buy something else but I don’t have a big place where I could store that much, I don’t think.
Mike: Got it. I was born in Japan and my mother brought over all these Japanese hand carved furniture from Japan and she gave me the bar that they had so I have that fully stocked with all these different whiskeys. I used to just collect them but I got to the point, probably six months ago, I’m like, why am I collecting these? Why am I not just drinking these? I’ve been digging into them a little bit.
Rob: Now that we’ve lost all of our listeners, I think there’s three people left listening, they’re like, “When are these guys going to start talking about startups for the love of God.” For the last week on my end, I’ve been doing some hiring, more interviewing. We’ve been interviewing constantly pretty much since the acquisition but we hire slowly. We’re extremely picky about skill set and about personality and culture fit and a lot of elements so we hire a lot slower than most SaaS teams or most startup teams do.
We have just stumbled on two or three really good candidates in the past few weeks. It’s nice to grow the team slowly and a lot of people get on board and productive. I don’t know if I said it on the podcast but we’ve had several weeks of the highest feature velocity in terms of shipping new features. The last month or two is probably the highest in Drip’s history.
That’s just gut feel, I don’t have absolutely numbers on it but it’s like we’ve shipped a ton of a new stuff and that’s partially because we’re, in my opinion, actually growing the team slowly and I want people get up to speed so that when you’re constantly adding people, you’re detracting from that people who should be being productive because they have to train everybody and get them up to speed and everything. Looking ahead, I guess I’m just optimistic and enjoying. This is when it’s fun, it’s when you’re getting a lot done.
Mike: I’m surprised that Drip being acquired by Leadpages and Leadpages is a funded company. I’m just surprised that culture is there of hire slowly to make sure that you’re getting the right people as opposed to I think most people when they picture a Silicon Valley startup, it’s like, “Oh, just hire whoever you can possibly get your hands on to get them in there because you need bodies to generate code to put it out the door.”
I do think that it’s a much better approach but there’s a tradeoff there in which you’re going to have to move slower and release less features over a certain time frame because you just don’t have the people. At the same time it’s like, you’re releasing good features and they’re quality so you don’t have to go back and incur a lot of technical debt because those people are coming up to speed at the right pace, so to speak.
Rob: To their credit, Leadpages has let us make that decision and has basically said, “As long as Drip keeps growing and you’re scaling and you’re doing all the right things, like you have been in the past,” Drip’s four and a half years old based on when we broke around on code and it’s probably about three years old from when we launched, and they say, “as long as you keep doing what you’re doing, you can grow as fast or as slow as you want.” They let us drive that, us being Derek and I.
Again, it’s to their credit. They haven’t forced any type of hiring culture on us. Leadpages itself grew rather quickly. I think they hired 100 people in 2016. They hired a lot of people that year. They did do exactly what you’re talking about, the high growth funded startup approach but they haven’t forced that on us.
Something else too is we haven’t had to hire that many because I’m only talking about product and engineering, I’m not talking about support, sales, marketing, finance, HR or any of that because there was already that infrastructure. We have a team of I think 12 full time support people working on Drip right now and I really hired one, it was Andy who’s been with us essentially since the start and since pre-acquisition but I didn’t have to hire those 11 people. It is a bit of apples and oranges because Leadpages had to grow an entire organization and I only have to grow the product engineering org.
Mike: Yeah. That’s true. I have seen cases where a new company will come in and they’ll acquire a smaller company and then a lot of the administrative marketing or sales team ends up leaving just because the bigger company already has those things in place and the smaller company basically gets gutted and they move everybody or let them go because they don’t need those roles filled anymore, it’s overhead. They’ve already got those things in place.
You are definitely in a different position but like I said, it’s nice to be in a position where you can just make the right decisions because they’re the right decision as opposed to being told like hey, you have to do this because there’s money to spend or something like that.
Rob: I agree. The other thing that has been nice with this funding, basically “being funded,” is that we are hiring fewer people but since we are so picky, they tend to be really good and thus, they tend to be really expensive. They tend to make a lot of money where they’re at and they’re worth that and it was something that couldn’t have afforded when we were bootstrapped. I’m pretty much across the board all the salaries that we make and that we’re hiring the people at. They’re worth it, it’s market rate. I just couldn’t afford to do that when we were bootstrapped in Fresno. How about you, what’s going on before we dive into some questions?
Mike: Not much else, really. I’m adding a couple of more customers to Bluetick on the way to my launch. I talk a lot more about that probably in my video series. I’ll leave it there just in case anybody’s interested. I think the plan is to try and add as many customers before the launch as I possibly can. I’ve done a couple of private demos for people here and there. It’s just interesting showing certain screens or how to do certain things and it’s like the light bulb moment, they’re just like, “I want it. That’s enough, I don’t need to see the rest of it.” It’s actually difficult to shut up at that point because it’s like they’ve already said, “Here, take my money.” And you’re like, “Oh no, but you see this, see that, over here.”
Rob: That’s really cool, man. Really good to hear. Alright, we’re going to answer some listener questions today, they continue to come in. We’ve got a couple of voicemails but first, I’m going to kick off with an email from Dan Miller, and he says, “You inspired me to write a book.” He says, “I’m Dan Miller from Canberra, Australia. I’ve been listening to Startups For The Rest Of Us for about two years and my wife, Christy, and I also listen to Rob and Sherry’s podcast, ZenFounder. About a year ago, I decided to take the first steps to move out of full time software consulting. My long term idea is to start a SaaS but when I heard you guys talking about the stairstep approach, I realized that going straight from consulting to SaaS was probably too far of a leap so I decided to turn a bunch of development notes I had taken into a book and this is about on the MEAN stack.”
Mean is MongoDB, Express.js, AngularJS and Node.js, just a technology stack you can use to build apps. He’s built a lot of apps, kept a lot of notes and so he launched a book, it’s called Lean MEAN Web App Machine. Says it’s going to be available soon in print from Amazon and a PDF from Gumroad. His website is miller.productions, that’s not miller.productions.com. I think productions is actually the TLD. So it’s miller.productions and he says, “Thanks again for all your work and creations over the years, you guys really have inspired me. Keep it up. I look forward to following your progress and learning more from you.”
Mike: I do think one thing we probably haven’t emphasized enough about your stair step approach, Rob, is the fact that it’s not even just the experience level involved in building a SaaS but it’s also the resources that you need and the length of time that it takes to get something workable and viable out the door.
I spent six months after I got the initial version done just trying to get it to a point where people would look at it and say yes. Even though I gave you a pre-order and paid for it, I’m still not necessarily comfortable moving forward because the product just really wasn’t there yet and it took a long time to get there. I underestimated how long it would take to get through that process and I think that it’s very easy to do that.
Rob: Right, and lose motivation and you questioning whether you’re going to find customers eventually and you don’t have the runway. There are so many things that stair stepping takes care of and it’s not just actual skill set and money but it’s confidence. It’s just confidence that you’re going to make it happen because you have before on a smaller scale.
Mike: Yeah. I think in my situation it was more just the runway and the timeline and everything that went with it, not so much the confidence. With the pre-orders and stuff I had the confidence, it’s just the product wasn’t there yet. It’s like, “Oh, this sucks.” But getting through that second wave, I’ll say, or that second iteration on the product was extremely helpful. It was a lot longer than I expected it to be.
Rob: He also said he gave us a shout out in the acknowledgment section of his book so that’s cool. He did give a discount code, if you’re interested in buying this. First 50 listeners that purchase the PDF copy can enter offer code startups at the checkout. Thanks for writing, Dan. I appreciate it.
Mike: Thanks, Dan. I think our listeners will really appreciate that.
Rob: Next, we’re going to a voicemail question from Cory Moss.
Cory: Hey, Mike and Rob. This is Cory Moss. I have a side project I’ve been working on for a couple of years and I’ve grown it to about $800 a month. For a big code upgrade coming up, a developer friend of mine is joining my team of just me. He’s expressed ongoing interest so he might be around for a few weeks or he might be around for the life of the product. Given that there are no shares to split, how would you guys offer him compensation? Like I said, it’s a side project, it’s not a company. There are no salaries, there are no titles. I’m not working on it full time and I probably won’t be for a long time and it’s a side project so there’s a little risk. These are really the things that one user has to figure out equity. How would you recommend that I compensate myself for the time that I put in versus how do I make sure he feels compensated even if he only ends up helping me out for a couple of weeks? Thanks for everything you do. I appreciate it.
Mike: Cory, it’s an interesting situation just because of the fact that it’s a small product and I think what strikes me, there’s a few different pieces that I plucked out of this. The first one was that you’ve been running this for a while, a couple of years now and it’s at $800 a month so it sounds to me like the growth is not there yet. It doesn’t mean that it won’t come but it doesn’t sound like it’s on a hockey stick trajectory where you can count on revenue from this upgrade being large enough to sustain both of you full time.
The other thing you need to consider is is this person really interested in coming on as a business partner? Is the product itself capable of supporting either salaries or dividends for both of you and can you afford to just pay him outright? Those are all kind of considerations that you need to think about. But I think that because of the situation you’re in, I would probably lean towards at the very least talking to him and just establishing an initial compensation to see how things work out.
I think that that does a couple of different things for you because if you just jump right into a partnership or relationship of any kind like that, then you can very easily have issues down the road where you find out that you don’t work very well together. Bringing him in on a consulting basis or I don’t want to call it partnership basis but to assist with the certain pieces of it, then it gets you through that and it gets you some familiarity with how you each work and whether or not you’re going to work well together. I would just pay for that outright with the understanding that yes, we can talk about that other stuff down the road but right now, let’s just see how this works out first.
You could also, depending on what the actual profit margin is, you could potentially pay for that out of profits down the road especially if you don’t have the money to pay him upfront right now. If you could work something out, say, “This is how much it’s making, $800, I’ll give you $400 or $600 every month for the next x months until your time is paid off.” That’s another way to approach it. Essentially, you are using, I’ll say worker financing, to get the work done and still be able to pay for it. Because otherwise, you got to front the money and that might be difficult based on what situation you’re in.
But I would try a short term approach where you just do some consulting work together a little bit, feel things out, see if it works out. If it doesn’t, that’s the end of it and you’re good. If it does, then you can discuss where to go next and whether or not the business has an opportunity to succeed both of you putting time and effort into it. And then you can figure out what does that look like. In terms of valuation of what your time is worth and how much you’ve put into it, I would probably look to see how much is it currently worth today and you can guess about how much time and effort you’ve put into it but it may very well put the product completely out of reach of somebody buying into it.
The other mechanism obviously is you could say, “Okay, we’ll buy it in a lower amount and then we both work x number of hours or you put in x number of hours in addition to what I’m putting in, to make up the difference. At that point they’re putting sweat equity into it and at some point, they’re vested at 50% or 25%, whatever the split between you two is. Those are the kinds of things that come to mind but Rob, what are your thoughts on this?
Rob: This is a tough one. Sometimes, handshake deals, honestly, can be a way to go if it’s someone like a long term friend and you really do trust the person. What I mean by that is, Chris said there’s no stock to split. He probably owns it personally, it’s not an entity on its own and it probably goes straight to his schedule C income on his tax returns so there’s nothing to give out. But I question if starting a LLC or even going so far as to formalize a partnership, I don’t know if that’s worth the effort given how little revenue it makes and how slow it’s growing.
I guess that’s where I would use my judgment. For example, if suddenly I had a side project and it was doing similar amounts of money and someone wanted to explore this opportunity, I do think that there would be a certain number of weeks or months where it would make sense to do the trial like you said and then if things work out and things do start growing, then you formalize it. That is something we did with DotNetInvoice. It was never really its own business entity but in the US, you can do something called just a partnership agreement. I think you can file that with the state, I don’t even remember but you basically sign a partnership agreement and there’s not stock but you can do an equity split.
You can just say I own 90%, you own 10% or whatever. And again, you have to ask yourself then, what if he only sticks around six months, is it worth the 5% or the 10% or whatever number you’re giving him. Because you can do restricted stuff and I don’t know how this is getting far beyond my understanding of technically, if it took you to court, is there a way to restrict partnership ownership, I don’t know. I’ve heard of restricted shares and stuff like that.
With DotNetInvoice, with Jeremy, the guy who I partnered on it with, he came along later as very much similar to this and it was doing $2,000 a month or something, we just signed an agreement and we view this legally binding between us but frankly, I don’t know how it would have gone over in court. We just didn’t expect that to happen and we were good friends and we’d worked together for a decade doing consulting.
It was a handshake deal that we put in writing and both signed and then he basically got more and more equity over the course of a year as he contributed more. He, in essence, did vest when that was the idea of it. I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t do that, to be frank. It was just how we handled it because we had that relationship and it worked out. I owned DotNetInvoice for several years and then since then, when I divested myself of everything as Drip got bigger, I actually gave the product to him, my ownership half. We just dissolved the partnership and now he owns it.
There’s a lot there and this is a complicated topic. I’m glad you called in and I hope that’s helpful, Cory. As we said last episode, people who send voicemails, you tend to go straight to the top of the cue. Cory just called in in the past couple of weeks.
Our next question is from Juka and he says, “You pointed out that it might be a bad idea to expand your product into a new feature area because you probably won’t be best of breed in both.”
I think he’s referring to me talking about how we’ve kept Drip focused on email marketing, marketing automation and we haven’t attached all these other apps to it. We haven’t built a shopping cart or landing pages or affiliate management like some of our competitors have done. Continuing with this email, he says, “Since that’s what he’s planning to do. I’d like to get into more detail on this. For example, using two separate best of breed products will most likely be more expensive than one product that does both things. Wouldn’t people appreciate the lower total price and the tighter integration as well? Personally, I’m starting out with time tracking and planning to add invoicing and accounting and later on maybe even stuff like payroll, CRM, etc. I don’t have much of a vision for my product besides that it’s meant to help people deal with stuff related to running a business. But I also want to make it very good. I think I’m headed towards having best of breed time tracking and I think I can implement the other stuff well too. What’s your take on this?”
Mike: I think when you’re looking at this specific situation, the thing to keep in mind is whether or not the features that you’re adding, could they stand as a completely separate products on their own or is it something that really needs to be integrated into the product that you currently have?
There are certainly products that go out there in the marketplace and over time as people make more requests, they expand their footprint and they get more functionality and then they cost more and they tend to move up and away from the customer base that they originally started with. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with that but you do have to recognize that as you add more features and become much less of a point solution and become more of a, I don’t really want to call it a platform, but a one stop shop for accomplishing all things within a particular silo, then you start to eliminate yourself from contention for consideration via certain segment of the population because they’re not interested in all those other things. They need one or two pieces of it but not the whole thing.
You could make it modular and say buy this or buy that and do ala carte sort of thing but then things get really, really messy so I probably wouldn’t recommend that. I don’t think that having two best of breed products and making them work really well together is a bad strategy. It does pose some marketing challenges though because how do you present that in such a way that it is obvious to people that you can either buy this or but that or you can get this suite of products that lumps them together. That’s probably a better approach.
That way, you silo it all underneath a corporate umbrella where everybody is coming to you for solving problems in this particular niche and if you need the CRM, you get this. If you need the invoice and accounting, you get this piece over here and by the way, you can lump them together and instead of paying $50 for each of them, you can pay $75.
That’s similar to the strategy that Intercom has gone with a lot of their products. They have four different products right now and you can buy them individually or you can buy them in a bundle and it costs you less money to buy them all as a bundle. But otherwise, you get them individually. For you as a consumer, the benefit of that is in theory, the company behind it is all working on the same code base or on the same teams and they have much better access to the code behind it and the teams and can do a much tighter integration that works better than if you were to tie things together using Zapier or custom webhooks or anything like that.
I don’t know if it’s the worst thing in the world to go in that direction but there are people out there who are just looking for a point solution. You have to be cognisant of that facts because that may be all that they want.
Rob: I think if you are in a vertical market, meaning you have time tracking for hair stylists, or for electricians, or for designers, whatever, like a really niched down market, I actually think you could add these other things and be okay, you still will not have multiple best of breeds because you cannot out compete teams who are totally focused on just that space or just that one app.
You can build a good product. It’s keeping up with all the feature requests and the changing environment. You got to think about people who have teams of 10 or 20 engineers and if they’re just focused on time tracking, they are going to out feature you and they’re very likely going to out innovate you and if you have time tracking, you were saying the CRM and whatever else, you’re going to get smoked. You will not have best of breed products in all of those spaces.
Again, unless you’re in that vertical where you really have niched down and then you may have it within that space again, the hairstylers’ space and the designer’s space is a tough one because there’s a lot of people doing it for that. That’s why I’m not saying like designers, developers, or freelancers because there are so many time tracking apps there. So if you’ve picked a vertical, then maybe I would perhaps consider building out an entire business suite. But if you have a horse on a product that you’re going to service everyone, I would say that there is zero chance of that happening.
With that said, if you have zero customers right now and you aren’t already dealing with support and adding features and all that stuff, then you need to launch before you start building anything or building anything further. If you believe you have a best of breed time tracking app, then take it to market and see what happens. I don’t believe that adding on another piece is going to help but you will know once you have 500 customers or 1,000 customers. You’ll know exactly what people are asking for and you’ll know what can potentially retain more customers or broaden your market. That’s my take on it. I hope that’s helpful.
Our last question for the day comes from Tom and he says, “I’ve been wanting to do a SaaS startup for the last few years but I run a consulting firm. Not in the same situation as a lot of other people, I have been a software engineer for over 10 years and my custom software consulting business does several million dollars a year. I have been able to put myself in a good spot financially.” He says he has runway of six to seven years. He says, “If you did have the cash to go full time with a runway of six or seven years, would you recommend going after a larger SaaS business even though you do not want to raise funding? Is a super long runway and a lot of determination enough or are you still going to need to raise several million dollars in VC to tackle something that’s either saturated or creating a somewhat new market?”
Mike: I think that springs an interesting question about the potential for having too much runway. The reason I say too much runway is that if you try to build something and you don’t have enough runway, obviously, you’re going to fail because you run out of runway, you can’t get the product out the door in the time that you have.
But if you have too much, you run into the opposite problem where your motivations to finish things or to get it out in the market as soon as you possibly can so that you can learn things is going to be impacted and you run the risk of waiting too long to launch and packing so many things in there that really doesn’t matter to the customers.
I think that that’s something that you need to keep in mind when you’re looking at this. I would probably cut that down and put it into chunks and say cap it on certain things. Let’s say 18 months or something like that for a particular idea that you’re going to pursue. If it doesn’t start to get any sort of traction, then you kill it and move on to another one. I think that’s a good approach because you do have the runway to be able to make those types of decisions and chop it up but being able get the traction within a certain amount of time is going to be critically important for this.
I do think you got plenty of runway to try a SaaS, even if it’s your first time out because you have enough runway to fail several times along the way or find several ideas that you start and make same false steps and it doesn’t ultimately impact negatively. There’s no negative repercussions for going down this road and failing or having it not work out. Or even just break even. That’s not exactly the situation you’re looking for.
But again, you have to keep in mind that that’s going to be a hard thing to deal with and you will have to think about it because you can easily get to a point where you’re like, “Oh, screw it. I don’t want to deal with this customer support issue. I’m just going to shut the whole thing down because I don’t like what these people are saying.”
Rob: Yeah. You’re in a great spot admittedly, right? Not doing it on the side is just a better way to go. Because it’s not as stressful as trying to hack nights and weekends. I’d been there and I wouldn’t do that again if I had the means. When I’m think of having six or seven years of runway, I’m just going to throw out a number, I’m imagining you have $600,000 in the bank, maybe it’s $400,000 but it’s probably a substantial sum of money.
The question to ask yourself is how much of that are you willing to spend and feel okay about? Because if it really does take you two or three years to get there, you might chew through hundreds or thousands of dollars, will you be okay with that? Some people are okay, it’s risk capital or whatever and they’re willing to put it in and other people, it would drive them nuts to be drawing their savings down like that.
The other question I would throw out is do you plan to do this solo because it’s going to take a lot longer or do you plan to hire a couple of people to help you? Because when I look back at how we grew Drip which is basically, I was in a smaller position as Tom, I didn’t have enough money in the back but HitTail was throwing off enough cash that we basically funded Drip using HitTail. By the time we broke even, I was out somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000. Not just because of my expenses but because I hired people to help us.
If you want to move faster and you think about hiring people, you may not have six or seven years of runway. I’m just going to take this $200,000, set that aside and then the rest of it I’m not going to touch at all. That’s my personal money that I’m not willing to get into and then use that $200,000 kind of as your own little angel round. And put that in the bank, the company bank account in essence, that you start and draw off that as you hire, as you pay for hosting expenses. There’s just going to be other expenses, it’s not just your living expenses, unfortunately. Especially if you’re trying to go into a bigger or more crowded space. That’s my initial thoughts on the money part.
Then there’s the question of if you have never launched a SaaS app and you want to launch into a place where it’s crowded and there’s VC funding and there is all kinds of chaos, basically red water, they call it. Personally, I would not have had the skills to do it until I had done several of my software products, until I had done HitTail. That set me up to do Drip. It gave me the skills and the confidence and the experience and all the things that I talk about with stair stepping.
I guess you have to judge for yourself, I would try not to be overly optimistic that just having six years and determination are going to mean that you can compete in a big space. I don’t think you need the VC money either though, like Tom said in his email, but I do think you need a skillset and some experience and the confidence that you can do it, otherwise you may get six or nine months in, get discouraged and bail because you’re wasting money or you may get two years in and since you’re just learning so much at once because all of the moving parts of SaaS, not just the tech, right? It’s the marketing, the sales and the customer’s success, and the support. All that stuff, trying to learn all that at once, it’s going to be a big learning curve.
Those are my thoughts. I think that you got to do some soul searching and know yourself on this one.
Mike: One thing that came to mind as you were talking about all that was that if you have this much of a runway, you could also consider just buying an app that somebody else doesn’t want to work on anymore, that is already making $10,000 or $20,000 a month and then using your runway to grow that. That takes a lot of the risk out of finding the market and finding customers and it allows you to put yourself in a position where you’ve got money in the bank that you can use to help scale the business. And as long as you can find something that would have the type of trajectory you would like it to have, it just needs some funding and money behind it, you’ve got that to bring to bear. That might be an option as well.
Rob: Yeah. I was totally going to say that. I’m glad you brought that up. That’s actually what I would do. That’s what I did multiple times. You can gain experience that way and it can be lucrative and you do have to put some money out upfront. As soon as I hit the point with consulting where I had a bit more money than I had time, that’s when I started saying how can I spend less time but still get to the same end?
I think some of the best decisions I’ve made in my entrepreneurial career were acquiring DotNetInvoice, acquiring HitTail, acquiring a couple of the other products I did because I learned so much and it gave me the means to basically change my life and then to fund future red water market stuff like Drip. I think that’s a real avenue I would explore myself.
Mike: Tom, I hope that was helpful and thanks for the question.
If you have a question for us, you can call it into our voicemail number at 1-888-801-9690 or you can email us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Our theme music is an excerpt from We’re Outta Control by MoOt used under Creative Commons. Subscribe to us on iTunes by searching for “startups,” and visit startupsfortherestofus.com for a full transcript of each episode. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time.